Exploring Mobile-First Design, AI, and Photography with Zenfolio's Keith Barraclough

In this episode of the Dead Pixels Society podcast, Gary Pageau talks again with Keith Barraclough, CTO and CPO of Zenfolio, a comprehensive business solution tailored for photographers, complete with beautiful galleries, CRM, and campaign management capabilities. Barraclough describes Zenfolio's pivotal role of mobile-first design and how AI is revolutionizing workflows for photographers.

Barraclough describes the company solutions AI brings, from showcasing mobile device products to providing relevant examples for users. Barraclough advocates that all the advancements have privacy as a top priority, and photographers can even tailor multiple versions of their sites for different seasons or markets.

Barraclough explains the image processing process on the photographer's machine before uploading to the service, ensuring privacy and protection. He discusses the balance between authenticity and manipulation in the age of AI, the increasing demand for branding in portrait photography, and the changing dynamics between photographers and consumers due to social media. 

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Transcript

Erin Manning: 0:02

Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the photo imaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, gary Peugeot. The Dead Pixel Society podcast is brought to you by MediaClip, advertek Printing and IP Labs.

Gary Pageau: 0:18

Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau, and today we're joined by Keith Barakloff. He's the CTO and CPO of Zenfolio. Hi, Keith, how are you today?

Keith Barraclough: 0:32

Gary, really good to see you.

Gary Pageau: 0:33

So, Keith, for the five people who are tuning in who don't know who Zenfolio is, can you give us a quick rundown on Zenfolio, the platform?

Keith Barraclough: 0:44

Well, Zenfolio, the platform and Zenfolio, the company now actually subtly different. So we actually have two brands. We have Format, so we have a platform under that brand which is geared towards photographers and creative professionals and the creation of their portfolios and very much in the arena of creatives who want to share their work in a beautiful fashion with prospects, often in more of a B2B type of environment. And then we have Zenfolio, and Zenfolio geared towards photographers and geared towards photographers that often have a lot of volume, who have very specific genres that they go and shoot, and really a platform that's sometimes called an all-in-one platform these days. The platform has the website, it has client galleries, it has commerce and it has all the CRM functions that a photographer needs in order to maintain their business, run their business effectively with a growing client base.

Gary Pageau: 1:52

And I remember when Zenfolio came out it was sort of like the beauty queen of galleries. That was sort of. The selling point was it was just beautiful galleries. Then you've added on these business functions along the way.

Keith Barraclough: 2:07

Yeah, and I think that one of the things that differentiates us is the focus on adding workflow and helping photographers be more efficient in the way they can run their business. I think the phrase we like to use is less time at the computer, less time on their mobile phone even more important today more time behind the lens and more time being creative and helping them grow their business that way.

Gary Pageau: 2:31

How have you seen the adoption of the CRM type stuff? Because that seems to be the area that photographers struggle with the most. They didn't get into photography to do email campaigns Right or invoice or do any of that stuff. They didn't?

Keith Barraclough: 2:51

What a great question. I mean, talk about timing as well. Here we are coming off the back of the biggest selling season with Black Friday, cyber Monday and everything else. Our photographers want to send out emails, promotions, everything to re-engage that base that they may have done an early shoot with or they may be going back to people they did a shoot with a year ago and trying to get them to sell more product. Let's be honest Building campaign management, building all the ways that they can offer and entice and engage and bundle products, is a big big part of what we do now. The expectation on that is going up. I mean, there's obviously very specific products that generate CRM at significant volumes, but the majority of our base, what we have in dealing with contact management, email management, campaigns, coupons, email and lots of branding around that that's a big part of what we do now.

Gary Pageau: 3:56

Because the reality is that the experience, their customers, the photographers' customers that's what they're expecting. Now, in this e-commerce age, the standard is being set by Amazon and all these other service providers who know how to run a campaign, who know how to anticipate and need know this stuff. That's what the consumer is expecting To get. A poorly formatted email that doesn't look right on a mobile phone is not going to cut it today.

Keith Barraclough: 4:25

No, Gary, you hit the nail on the head. It's obvious when you stop and think about it. Everything's about the mobile phone from the consumption point of view. When we look at the metrics of how we sell and what we sell, the amount that we sell through Apple Pay and all of these things that are basically consumers or are consuming on the phone, that was the big change when Zenfolio went back and rebuilt the platform we started. That a number of years ago was a mobile-first design Mobile-first from the end consumer perspective, mobile-first from the photographer. That really dovetails into why we've been doing the things we're doing with workflow.

Keith Barraclough: 5:11

Now Bye. We want the photographer not only to deliver to the mobile phone but leverage the mobile phone as part of their everyday working environment. That has to be able to run their business from wherever they are. You know that basically means the phone. You know and that's a big part now of where the evolution of Zenfolio is going and the evolution of format as well, where we can help the photographer or the creative professional interface with their business through their phone.

Gary Pageau: 5:43

Can they actually run their entire business from the phone? Do they even need a laptop? And is that? Are you actually just spinning me or is this actually possible?

Keith Barraclough: 5:54

I'm not spinning you but I'm not telling you that you don't need a laptop. You, some of the more complex functions, but the more timely functions are absolutely driven by the phone now and you know that that gets to you know their end customer interaction and I think this is this is one of you know, as we sort of talk a little bit more about where things are going with with the technology stack and and the workflow. That's where AI actually starts to play a part in helping them do more from their phone because they're being assisted and in the workflow scenario. But you know, there's still, there's still a lot of design and quality that there's only so much you can look at on a, you know, a three inch screen.

Gary Pageau: 6:47

Right, you can actually hide a lot of things.

Keith Barraclough: 6:50

You know you can just do a point to try and check that the eyelashes look good in the shot. But there's a reality of when you actually want a 4K monitor and you want one, or a 8K monitor in some people's cases these days, and you want to be able to see it. You know what a big piece of glass.

Gary Pageau: 7:07

So recently you were at the Visual1st Conference in San Francisco. Actually, I saw you there and I said, hey, when are you going to have me on the podcast again? I said, Keith, you're working, I'll tell you a book. And then later that day you guys won one of the awards for best business. That's right, Potential, which is kind of interesting because this is your second award. But it wasn't in that category, correct, or was it?

Keith Barraclough: 7:35

Oh, this is the. We won this award two years in a row. Okay, we came to Visual 1st last year with Photo Refine, which is basically an AI machine learning solution for image management culling, sorting, grouping, you know essentially a high performance work tool for people that are shooting portraits, weddings, events and allowing them to sort their images out really quickly on their laptop and then upload them into the service that was. You know, that was what we won for last year and we had just we would just bring that to market, you know, five million plus images later. It's been a great product for us.

Keith Barraclough: 8:22

We, you know, we're very happy with what it's done. It can go an awful lot further, but it's been a great product and has lived up to its title of best business potential Last year. This year, we came to the show and showed the first part of our AI site building suite that we're, that we've recently been talking about and that is really we call this smart, smart site, and it really is starting to leverage some of the LLM solutions and other machine learning capabilities that are out there so machine vision and other things to start to be able to create sites using AI and what does that even mean, I mean, I mean we threw out the word no.

Gary Pageau: 9:17

I mean we threw out the words machine learning, ai and other techno babble, and I think you and I kind of know what is it. But for the listener, how is that? What is that advantage over then? Just like selecting a nice, beautiful template.

Keith Barraclough: 9:31

Well, you know, that's a that's a great question. And and still, you know, selecting a nice, beautiful template is something that you can't totally get away from, because the human design factor is is really important, right. However, being able to effectively create a set of personalized templates from you to start with is something that's it's it's it's less limiting, right? So the reason that AI is interesting in the case of site building, at least initially and there's a, as you can imagine, there's a roadmap where all these things can go is helping that photographer or creative professional get to a place where they can understand the capabilities of site building. And it's.

Keith Barraclough: 10:21

You know, it's not easy to come into a product and understand the way you can deliver a beautiful site, unless there's something to assist you, and that's really what AI is doing. So, without getting into techno babble, we're really at the point of going look, tell us a bit about what you're trying to do, build you a bunch of sites and you can tell us if you like any of these sites, and then, from there on, we can iterate and help you design the best possible expression for your work, right, and without having to suddenly be looking at a blank piece of paper and going you know, what do I want to lay down on it? Or looking at a template that has a bunch of Greek in it and nothing relating to you, we go look, we know a bit about what you do you tell us, for we can actually help you fill this out.

Gary Pageau: 11:21

So is it looking at the photographer's portfolio and saying this is the kind of stuff this person does? This is this person does a lot of child shoots and a lot of infant or newborn, so it's going to be that skewed.

Keith Barraclough: 11:38

It's that, it's that skew, so right now it's so. There's always this fine line and we can we can talk about privacy as well, which is obviously a huge Sure. That sits alongside some of this. I work, but it's basically asking primary shoot type, asking secondary shoot types, asking you a little bit of information and then Giving you some options. Sure, and as you go into the product, we know more about you. We can offer at any time to help you. We design the way your galleries look, these things. So, right at the moment, the very first thing we did was we said look, there's a place where there's there's a hard thing to do. Right, the hard thing to do right now is on a mobile device, right. Show an end user who's coming to try and understand what our product is and what what we can do for them. Show them examples that are relevant to them and rather than just going, hey, just pick from one of these templates it's tell us a bit about you and we'll build you a couple of templates effectively templates.

Keith Barraclough: 12:45

We're gonna build you a couple of custom sites, what information we've got about you, and you can drop into the product and you can start editing, editing to the heart, to your heart's content, and that's really. That's really the value proposition here is. You know, it's the show me function. Right, we describe it all we want, but it was really compelling, as if we show them what it really looks like, and it's hard to do that on a mobile device.

Gary Pageau: 13:09

Coming back, and the other thing question I have is let's say, for example, you, because a lot of photographers are seasonal, right, they, they have. You know summer is wedding season and graduations, they may do family settings in the fall, and then, how it is season, can they have multiple versions for seasonality that's?

Keith Barraclough: 13:30

so that's absolutely one of the things that's interesting for us is how does the site change over time, right now? So now you get into this, this next sort of phase of where this goes. The bit that we brought to the table that we thought was really interesting was we have a way to describe the way the website is built and, without getting into again in too much into the technical weeds of this, we have a way of telling the LLMs the solutions out there how to build a site. Right, but it is totally compatible with all our editing tools. Okay, what it means is that any time I can assist in building, but then the photographer can take over and decide where they want to go from there, right, well, now take that to your question.

Keith Barraclough: 14:28

Okay, build me a winter version of my site. Build me some version of my site, right, absolutely so. That's now. Now let's let's take that, build me an optimized market site. I can have multiple. All of these things, such a time sink, right, right, become possible, right. That's really when you, when you really get to the nut of why this is important, it's that there's an assistant that can build you variants that would take you so much time to do have them done in your style, under your control, but being managed and maintained in an automatic fashion.

Gary Pageau: 15:21

Now you guys have launched the AI stuff a while back and you know there's been a lot of. It's funny because since this kind of came out, especially with the generative AI stuff which is not what we're talking about, but it's sort of that it sort of put this we are talking about generative AI.

Keith Barraclough: 15:39

We're using generative AI to do this. Yeah, but you're not.

Gary Pageau: 15:42

But we know we're not manipulating images, which is what most people think about. Right, yeah, but no, you are, because you're creating things right. So, but my point is is there's almost there's almost like this fear in the media. It's taking over whatever. I would hope your photographer customers would look at this as an advantage, because it's just another tool. Just like Photoshop was a tool and Adobe Premiere is a tool. It's a tool you can use to create the efficiencies that will help you do the things you need to be doing to grow your business.

Keith Barraclough: 16:12

Yeah, I mean it comes back to that, that phrase I used in the beginning right, we're, we're there to try and help that, get all the other stuff done so they can stay behind the lens and they can. They can take their craft and they can go and, you know, enjoy and hopefully you know, grow their business. There aren't many photographers that don't really enjoy their, their craft. You know that that's the reason they're doing what they do. They do not enjoy sending out invoices and you know mailing customers about offers and things like that.

Gary Pageau: 16:42

I had a friend of mine who was a kind of a weekend warrior portrait photographer and he's, he said, he said, said to me once, nothing can kill your joy of photography faster than having a photography business. There's no reason. It wasn't the shooting side of it, it was the invoicing, chasing customers and you know all that fun stuff.

Keith Barraclough: 17:04

I think that there's a lot of you know, to sort of even take that to another level. There's a lot of small business owners that will say there's, there's nothing really ruins having a business, like having to maintain a website.

Gary Pageau: 17:14

So you know exactly you know, I've got to rebuild my other, my, my company side. I got to rebuild in. It's something, it's something I dread. So let's talk a little bit about something you brought up earlier, which is the privacy side of it. Obviously, with a machine learning tool, it's looking at stuff, it's looking at images, it's looking at data. How are you protecting the privacy of that information?

Keith Barraclough: 17:39

That's a continuum of what we have to be right. I mean, at the end of the day, we're only using technology where we're either totally anonymized with a particular provider or we're in control totally of what is happening to a particular piece of content. So examples of that are photo refine was built from the ground up with privacy in mind. So the images are processed on the photographer's machine. Any information about those images stays it's the same as being on the SD card, right? It's right there, it's in the photographer's domain and then it is uploaded to our service where it's totally private as well. It is not going out to a third party service where that data in any way could be leveraged for other reasons?

Gary Pageau: 18:35

Yeah, cause that's what I think is what the concerns specifically photographers have is they don't want their images to be used in a generative AI. Absolutely. It has to be create images on the fly. There's some very deep concerns about that, because those images they ask to learn from something right and they don't want theirs to be part of that, absolutely.

Keith Barraclough: 18:56

And there's things we do to ensure that our photographers are protected. Obviously, private galleries is the most protected way. We look for nefarious bots and things like that as well, but at the end of the day, when we're applying AI, we're doing it in a way that is with privacy first in mind. That's the key In the case of our site building and the smart site. Any information that is being provided to a large language model solution, like you know, anthropic or OpenAI or any of the other solutions there is no personal data that's provided there, and what we're doing is we're saying given these set of attributes, build a design of a site, give it back to us in our language. So we say here's our language, use this language, build a design of a site, give it back to us, and then we present that to the photographer.

Gary Pageau: 19:54

So theoretically, could a photographer go to some of these tools directly and try and build this stuff themselves? That's hard. I mean it's curious because you know it's like you're leveraging AI tools that are, in a lot of ways, readily available, but, like you said, there's a skill to manipulate the AI to get.

Keith Barraclough: 20:16

Exactly. There's a lot more to it than just, hey, build me a site and the you know, and there, look, go, scan the web. You'll find people that will, you know, say, yeah, we'll build you a WordPress site with AI. Okay, great, you get some site. It won't take into account the type of media and all these other important things, but, more importantly, is it maintainable?

Keith Barraclough: 20:41

Right exactly the bit that's different about us is we have AI as an assistant within Zenfolio, right, right, as opposed to get AI to go build a site and then you know, give me a WordPress site or something like that. So the minute the assistants run, it's still there. You can still go and manipulate the gallery, change anything about it. You have the falls in folio experience there to continue on. And if you want assistance again, if you want to design a winter gallery theme, you know, as something like that, ai can help you do that but, go and edit it to the way you want it.

Erin Manning: 21:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Keith Barraclough: 21:25

It continues with this idea of it's an assistant. It's the way I, the way I often described it, is if you, you know, if you've ever gone through a sort of design process and you've worked with, you know a really great creative director, they will come and they'll show you a bunch of concepts of how things would go. You know, do you like concept A, concept B, concept.

Keith Barraclough: 21:48

C Right yeah, and then you go oh, I kind of like B, but it would be nice if it was, you know, slightly more cheerful. You know it, it's actually you're right. So that process is what I. My analogy is that turnaround time three days, four days and they'll come back with their next set of concepts for you. Think about, ai is just gonna compose.

Gary Pageau: 22:12

With a per hour charge for that every single time, right.

Keith Barraclough: 22:15

So now it's gonna be hey, I want, I want a theme that's more winter. Yeah, Can you show me three or four options that would fit with my color palette here?

Erin Manning: 22:25

Yeah.

Keith Barraclough: 22:26

There they are. I like this one, but I would like it to be brighter. Okay, now I've got three more. You can see what that does to the working time for a photographer, where what they want is a beautiful site, but at the end of the day, what really matters is the photography that goes on that beautiful site, yeah. And then we get back out and do the shooting for you know their winter collections, for whoever they're doing their shooting for.

Gary Pageau: 22:50

But ideally, what really matters is making a buck, hopefully. What are you seeing Now that you've had photo refine in the marketplace? Yeah, have you. You know? Has there been any data you can possibly share on, like a photographers are making more or they're saving time, so it's getting them to be more. What's the you know in your wallet benefit of this, as opposed to time savings just time savings?

Keith Barraclough: 23:21

Good question, and another piece of what we talked about last year was we have a smart pricing engine. So we take all the information that we get around you know global sales but, more realistically, US sales and we help a photographer build a price list and get selling as quickly as possible. So take into account the type of photography they do, we take into account where they're selling, so they're a geo and then we actually will build on price lists as part of our commerce solution. So this was the first. You know the benefit we have is we've been in business for a while, so we've got some real data.

Gary Pageau: 24:03

Exactly.

Keith Barraclough: 24:04

So you know, we've been around for, you know, 14, 15 years now. We have data that goes back a while and we can see pricing trends, and so we applied some smart analysis to that and built what we call smart pricing and that that's in our product today. Then, obviously, we care about photo-refine and, like I said, you know we've had thousands, tens of thousands of shoots now that have gone through photo-refine. Like I say, well, north of 5 million images have been processed, that time saving there. We can come up with metrics, but we're talking about hours of time saving Sure.

Gary Pageau: 24:46

There are other calling solutions out there, but it's one of those. In a lot of cases it's so many extra steps. It's export, call, bring back, go through those. It's not integrated into the process. That's right.

Keith Barraclough: 25:01

And then the other thing that we're working on is we're getting better and I would say everyone can continue to get better. Some of these volume shoot scenarios where we have surf schools that take tens of thousands of images and, through some of the work we're doing in galleries and helping them organize their photos, they're out selling significant volume of images.

Gary Pageau: 25:31

So you have people in the volume space using, but are they really taking that many pictures of the student? Because I've got some friends who are in the volume business. They say if they take more than three pictures, the photographer takes more than three pictures, I'm going to fire them because they're taking too many pictures.

Keith Barraclough: 25:49

That's in a very specific volume case, right. But when you look at things like motorsports, oh yeah, they are shooting crazy, oh yeah yeah, yeah, for like sports photography.

Keith Barraclough: 26:03

And then they also have a disparate customer base that they have to reach. Some of the features we put in have made some of those photographers very successful. On Zenfone, volume is sort of it covers a lot of ground now right everywhere, from team sports all the way through to sports and action photography, competitions all the way out to, obviously, school photography. They all have different needs but they tell you know, one of the common things is they sure take a lot of photos.

Gary Pageau: 26:34

Yeah, well, exactly, it's funny because that is one of the things I've seen sort of in the marketplace, been seeing some of the explosion, that growth that's happening. It's in the volume space, where you're having a lot of wedding and portrait people are like saying, hey, I can compete in that space now because I've got some of these tools that the big guys used to have exclusively, and some of those tools are available, so it's created a lot of interest in competition in that market.

Keith Barraclough: 27:01

Right, and so you know we also. We've done a lot to deliver on video as well. For that space. Yeah, yeah yeah, we've been in that for a while, you know, and companion video alongside high volume shoots is generating the video or just sucking in what people shoot.

Gary Pageau: 27:19

Can you create like a highlight reel? Not yet, but that's something that's quite something that might be coming later, maybe, perhaps Absolutely Stay tuned.

Keith Barraclough: 27:54

Yeah, you know the way. The way automation and intelligence impacts obviously the workflow. I mean, it's sort of obvious to say it, but that's been where we've been focused and you know, as we we develop the various AI components that will help build a site, maintain a site, manage content, deliver content right and actually help the photographer maintain the relationship with their clients which is another place where let's be realistic AI has an important part to play Sure.

Gary Pageau: 28:27

Absolutely.

Keith Barraclough: 28:29

They don't have a customer support team of 30 people behind every photographer. But you can help. You can help a customer a long way with AI Sure. Those are the pieces that make a difference to the type of photographer that's in Folio format of support today.

Gary Pageau: 28:45

And yet, I mean again, I don't monitor. You know what you're charging, but you're not charging a crazy amount of money for all this technology.

Keith Barraclough: 28:53

No, no, we aren't. I mean, at the end of the day, we want our photographers to sell more, right? We want them to be successful. And you know, if they sell more, we will see benefit from that in increased sales through commerce, and for us it's not about trying to take some exorbitant fee upfront. We want them to be successful, right? That's the only way this type of business grows.

Gary Pageau: 29:23

So one of the things that everyone's questioning sort of in the portrait world is you know kind of what's happening in terms of you know the economy and some of the concerns people have and how you know weddings are changing. People are downsizing weddings there's not the big wedding parties. How is that affecting your business? Sort of that change in sort of the portrait culture.

Keith Barraclough: 29:49

Yeah, that is a good question. We've been watching the wedding market. It is changing some the tie-in to more social benefits that come with the wedding. So people want to leverage social channels to share more what's going on with their whole event, from beginning to end. So it's a lot more to do with everything from the engagement shoot all the way through, especially past the honeymoon and goodness knows where.

Keith Barraclough: 30:21

So the idea of the life cycle of some major life event has changed, and that's one piece I think that's different to. It's not just all about the photo album that ends up on the coffee table somewhere. It's a different experience. Now that they're looking for Video is an important part of that and that's why we focused on it. The number of weddings that are coming in with drone footage and things like that, it's just different.

Keith Barraclough: 30:53

And so that idea of how we package that up and help the photographer provide a sort of the experiential event, I think is an important part of what we do. It's not that you have to kind of go to the photo gallery that was sent in a link and then you have to go to some other third-party file sharing service to see some video somewhere, and it's like we've spent a fair amount of time thinking about how that at least, is a cohesive gallery experience. I think there's more to go there for sure, how people want to experience their media when and how they want to share. That is a big part of, I think, where some of the opportunity comes around Portrait, and when we say portrait you know, at least for life experience, portrait right, as opposed to sitting on a stool with a background portrait.

Gary Pageau: 31:42

But even then. I mean, when you talk about, like when I see people talk about, like senior portraits, right, those are turning into entire branding exercises where kids want to stand next to a car and they want smoke and lasers and flames and all these other kind of things happening, whether they're putting it digitally or actually there. And you know we have a very brand, you know image conscious culture right now and they want all those things. And again, delivering those in a comprehensive way in a reasonable amount of time in a package that people will hopefully choose to buy things from, that's a big nut to crack and look that you know, without getting into yet another side of AI, it's sort of this tough proposition.

Keith Barraclough: 32:28

Right, are you taking a realistic photo or are you taking a manipulated image? Right, you know, to your point, they want some. You know hot Mustang behind the you know 15 year old kid that wants the birthday shot and they don't, so they drop it in. You know it's every scene can be a green screen now. So what you know, it's sort of like this, this balance of where photography sits, and you know to this this whole thing that you know you're seeing Adobe and others and Google, right, talk about. It's like when was the image manipulated and actually recording that the image was manipulated. And then you know we could, we could branch off into that whole discussion around content and where I, where I, where I sits in that. But, to your point, when it starts to become a branding piece, then you're injecting other creative elements that aren't necessarily easily brought to bear without manipulating the image.

Gary Pageau: 33:32

And also creating again a lot of time, and you know, time in front of the computer or whatever. I mean. I was watching a big discussion about people talking about you know the picture with the, the baseball player with the bat on fire, and it's like do you actually like the bat on fire or do you do that digitally and what's the pros and cons of each? You know and you know just, and you think you know like it's a branding exercise. Then that's, that's commercial photography. It's not portraiture really.

Keith Barraclough: 34:04

Right and, and you know, then you start crossing back into a format which obviously has a huge base of commercial photographers and there's this fine line of again where AI is manipulating the image versus not, and I. You know that's a very tough set of questions you know to address, which is, you know, when is it good and when is it bad for the photography industry?

Gary Pageau: 34:30

And, yeah, Well, when is it a photo and when is it an illustration? Right?

Keith Barraclough: 34:36

Right, right so. Someone say that train has already left the station, so Brian, some of that is left in the hands of the consumer. Now, I mean, let's, let's, you know. Look at the tools that are available, even on, you know, your average phone for an image, an image after potentially they've had a professional photography shoe. So some of that may not even be in the control of the photographer anymore.

Gary Pageau: 34:58

And actually what's interesting is that you know there's a lot of push and pull between the photographer as an artist right, who wants, who has a vision, has an eye they've gone to school, they've learned this stuff and the consumer over what they want and what they're, what their creative input is right. So I think there's going to be more and more of that tension.

Keith Barraclough: 35:19

And and social media is the place where a lot of this ends up right. So it sort of comes back to when, when you have an event, how you deliver that event and then what happens to that media you know, and how you know whether it's a wedding or a bomb it's for, or you know coming of age party or any of these things. How that gets used is really an interesting sort of divergence for our industry. Yeah, or?

Gary Pageau: 35:49

potential opportunities to exploit. Absolutely, absolutely, I mean you can't really shut the door on anything. So where can people go to get more information about Zenfolio format and all the cool stuff you are developing?

Keith Barraclough: 36:04

Well, obviously we've got a formatcom and Zenfolio. com as you, as you sign up for Zenfolio, you'll get exposed to some of the the interesting technology we're bringing to bear and helping photographers get basically to having an active site or active galleries as quickly as possible. And with format, it's a lot of just really helping those commercial photographers reach their audience as quickly and effectively as possible. So you'll you'll find those pieces there on our site. Watch out, we'll be launching a lot of very cool new stuff over the next three to six months.

Gary Pageau: 36:39

We'll be looking forward to seeing more of that, and thank you, Keith, and have a great day, thanks.

Erin Manning: 36:46

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