Mastering SEO Alchemy: Proven Strategies for Converting with Jesse Ringer

Unlock the secrets of SEO mastery with the guidance of Jesse Ringer, the founder of Method and Metric, based in British Columbia. This episode navigates the world of search engine optimization (SEO), with Ringer sharing his strategies that transform everyday websites into powerful customer magnets. He confront the outdated practices that plague the internet, like the keyword stuffing, and charts a course towards content that's not just rich in relevance, but that resonates with the core of your target audience.

In this conversation, Ringer tackles the tough questions: How does bounce rate influence your website's story? What does the shift in Google's algorithmic gaze mean for your online presence? With Ringer's insights, you'll emerge equipped to interpret analytics like a seasoned seer and craft an online narrative that not only captivates but converts. This is the blueprint for building a highway of organic traffic.

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Transcript

Erin Manning: 0:02

Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the photo imaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau. The Dead Pixel Society podcast is brought to you by Mediaclip, Advertek Printing and Independent Photo Imagers.

Gary Pageau: 0:19

Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau, and today we're joined by Jesse Ringer, who's the founder CEO of Method and Metrics in Vancouver, Canada. Hi, Jesse, how are you today I'm doing great. Thanks for having me, gary. So what is the method to your metric madness, what is this company and what is it you do?

Jesse Ringer: 0:42

Yeah, so Method and Metric is an SEO agency that focuses on helping businesses generate more traffic from Google, and that involves analytics as well as ensuring that the traffic they're getting to their website actually takes action once they're there.

Gary Pageau: 1:03

There's like a thousand of these companies out there who offer very services to help businesses do that. First, explain what does your company mean by SEO. Is it a search thing? Is it ads? Is it content creation? Is it back linking? How do you guys do your magic? Yeah?

Jesse Ringer: 1:26

yeah, you know that's a super important distinction, right? Like there's a ton of ways to do SEO For us, we like to focus on the things that we can control. So that is your website making sure that you're targeting the right keywords, that the information is clear and succinct and your messaging resonates with your audience, and that your visitors are able to take action on your website as you intended them to do.

Gary Pageau: 1:52

Okay, so there's a little bit of website enhancement there too, right I mean? So it's not just in the keywords and all that. Is there some navigation help you provide to as well?

Jesse Ringer: 2:02

Yeah, so we think about the website from a holistic perspective of like making sure that you have the right navigation in place, the right types of pages and content that people are interested in, whether that's your services or expertise, you know resources, your blog and that kind of stuff. Pricing pages too, making sure that that's all there and then ensuring that each of those web pages is optimized for the right set of keywords so that when people get there and they read the content, that it answers the question that they were after and that they feel more inclined to take action.

Gary Pageau: 2:40

Words are kind of something everyone knows about. But no one really, I don't think other than folks in your side of the business understand it's not just you know text, it's actually what people are searching for, right. So you have to kind of reverse engineer right the search process.

Jesse Ringer: 3:00

Yeah, yeah, you bring up an excellent point. The words in the search term are one part of it, but the intent behind those words matters a great deal more. When somebody does a search, they are looking for an answer and, regardless of whether they know it or not, they have some expectation of what they're looking to find, and so you need to align not just the keywords but also align on that expectation right. That search intent matters a great deal Because, if you're thinking about, you know, I don't know restaurants near me and I'm shown a list of you know restaurants on the other side of the country that doesn't really serve me and, conversely, like you, want to make sure that, when they get to the content, that it still continues to answer the question they were looking for, right, Because nobody does a search if they already know the answer to it. So, yeah, it's the keywords, but also the intent behind those keywords that matters.

Gary Pageau: 4:01

So when you talk to a potential business about this, like, do you have like a interview process or how are you extracting out of them? Yeah, you know kind of that process because I'm guessing a lot of people come to you. You work with small businesses, entrepreneurs and people like that. They may not even know.

Jesse Ringer: 4:20

Yeah, that's totally a reality for most business owners, myself included, like we don't always know everything that we need or have a full grasp of. You know how we need to get there. So, yeah, whenever we meet with a client or a prospect or someone that is just interested about SEO, they always ask them you know what is the goal of their website? Like, what do you want people to do when they get there? You know, how do you generate revenue? You know, because, ultimately, your website is going to be a marketing tool, who's your target audience and what do they care about? And then ultimately, like, what are your goals for your business?

Jesse Ringer: 5:01

Because SEO is certainly a huge driver of traffic for most businesses and most websites, but at the end of the day, it's only part of that puzzle. If you're relying solely on search as your way to get clients and customers, you're going to have a hard time kind of dealing with the ups and downs of that. So, does SEO fit in with your social media strategy? Does it fit in with your newsletter? Does it fit in with your podcast or your videos? What else does your business do to promote itself? And so, having an understanding of that, we can then better tailor the website experience to help capture and match all of those different touchpoints for your clients and customers.

Gary Pageau: 5:47

So at what point in let's say, someone's doing a rebrand or a relaunch right there they're in existing business they realize I need more help in this. So where should they start? Should they start with you, or should they start with the marketing side of it to get all that other stuff? So then, when it gets to you at points, it gets to the SEO piece and points to the right place. Where's the starting point? Because I think that's where a lot of people, especially the people I talk to in the imaging- space, you just rattled off three or four things from a marketing standpoint you got to pay attention to.

Gary Pageau: 6:21

And where do you even start with that stuff?

Jesse Ringer: 6:25

Yeah, I would say the first place to start would be to like look at your business like metrics whether that's your revenue, if you have analytics on your website, looking at those like see where your traffic is coming from and also kind of have a conversation with yourself and perhaps your other business partners around, like what you want the website and business to be doing, where those gaps are. Because I think you know SEO can do a lot for just about every business and you know I wouldn't have started an agency if I didn't believe that but at the same time, if you don't have the other mechanisms in place to kind of account for or be able to embrace SEO, yeah, I mean, if you put a lead capture form on your site and no one looks at the leads, you're kind of dropping the ball on that and wasting your time and money.

Jesse Ringer: 7:20

Yeah, like the best relationships we've had with our clients are the ones that are the clients who are engaged in the work and doing the stuff and like contributing to making sure that we're aligning with their core values, but also for their audience. Like we know SEO inside and out, but we don't know your audience as well as you do and you've been running a business you know for however long, you know the people, you know all of that stuff and so if you're able to add that expertise and that knowledge into the SEO work, it's just that much more successful. And this goes for any company that's hiring outside talent. If you're involved, it's going to be much more successful, but if you just rely on them, put them to the side, it's going to be a lot more challenging to see the results that you're after.

Gary Pageau: 8:07

So I talked to a lot of companies who provide service to other businesses like yours, and there's always the belief you know, hey, certain stuff you can do yourself right, you can do your own TikTok videos, you can do your own blogs, you can do your own newsletters. Is SEO something that people can do on their own?

Jesse Ringer: 8:24

Oh, absolutely, but it comes down to time, right. Seo is a thing that is like the information's out there, like the SEO industry and the community in general, like they're very forthcoming with sharing their expertise and their knowledge and sharing what's working and what isn't. For them, there's tons of free resources. Like, to be honest, like I got most of my experience and most of my learning from Twitter, like I would go in there every day and just see what other SEOs we're doing and trying it out for myself to see how it goes.

Jesse Ringer: 8:56

So to say that SEO is, you know, a niche thing it's not, but it does take time, it does take persistence and it's about kind of like really being in the weeds about it. And so, although I think everyone can do it and there's a lot of stuff you can do without hiring an SEO professional you know you'll move that much faster and be able to focus on the things you're good at and passionate about If you do hire the people to do the work that you don't want to do.

Gary Pageau: 9:22

And I'm sure it's more about you know where you want to spend your time as a small business owner. You're spending your time running your shop and make sure your printers are working and selling the latest cameras, or do you want to be behind a desk trying to optimize your SEO?

Jesse Ringer: 9:36

Right Like fussing over I don't know Nikon cameras or cameras by Nikon as a keyword, like that's not a thing that most people care about. Right Like I spend eight to 10 hours a day thinking about SEO. I don't think other business owners would spend a fraction of that time thinking about it.

Gary Pageau: 9:54

So so I mean, let's talk about the keyword bit a little bit. You just mentioned like a phrase it does that. Would that make a big difference If you said Nikon cameras or cameras by Nikon, I mean, would that be not as much?

Jesse Ringer: 10:06

as it used to. Ok, but again like there's. You know, if you're looking at a list of keywords, like you're going to hum and ha and like be indecisive Over, like choosing like camera set or camera, and like it's starting to get a little more intuitive. Google's understanding is more like at a topic level rather than a keyword level. But you know, a common misconception is like trying to fit as many keywords onto a page as possible.

Gary Pageau: 10:36

Right, yeah, that's right. Cutting more, cutting the giant the list of keywords into the, into the, into the secret invisible box, is crazy yeah.

Jesse Ringer: 10:46

Yeah, so it. It's not, as you know, not as like oriented and like making sure that you get a Nikon camera beside each other three times on the page, but at the same time, that page needs to be dedicated to the entire topic of Nikon cameras. Right, okay, that's the bodies or the lenses. You can get into a whole bunch of different things there.

Gary Pageau: 11:07

But so it's me like, especially with websites these days, you know, and I'm old enough to remember HTML and fun things like that where it was just when a web page was actually just a page of of of text, and now they're almost multi, multi faceted now, right, in the sense that there's different landing pages for different intent and different, you know, customer journeys and everything else, and that's something you have to consider as well.

Jesse Ringer: 11:57

Yeah, absolutely you have to think about. You know you have to meet your audience where they are. You know video content is huge, like look good, tiktok, youtube, instagram. Video content is inescapable, especially in like these phases where visual content is so common and expected, but at the same time, search engines can really only distinguish, you know, text on a page really well, like all of the audio, all of the words that are expressed in a video or an image are not easily distinguished or understood by the search engines yet, and so you have to be really mindful of balancing like where to meet your people. You know, like podcasts are huge, audio content is huge, but what do you do if your audience members are deaf or they don't have access to like headphones or something in a public space? Well, you have to do what?

Gary Pageau: 12:49

the Deaf Pistol Society does, and you provide a transcript.

Jesse Ringer: 12:53

Heck, yeah, exactly Transcribe it. And those texts like help with the search engine results, but they also, like make it more accessible. And so you know, with content and like with the evolution of design and development for websites, like JavaScripts, depositories and like content like that, are continuing to evolve and like becoming like becoming really prominent. But we also have to bridge the gap between like appeases in Google and making sure that it, as a crawler, can understand what your website is about, because you could be accidentally blocking a ton of important information to the search engines that could be helping your website rank better.

Gary Pageau: 13:35

And that's what I hear from folks in this part of the business is, you know, google kind of changes the rules occasionally and you have to keep up with that. I mean, how often does that happen? You know how many times a year it?

Jesse Ringer: 13:47

seems like and they're not a monopoly, right, but that's a different conversation. But yeah, like because Google does send so much traffic to our businesses, like there are tons of cases of the websites being banned from Google and like they just shut down and rebrand and start over, because without that traffic from Google you're not going to be a sustainable digital business, and so we do have to toe the line a bit and it's.

Gary Pageau: 14:15

It's kind of curious, like when you said banned by Google, assuming you're not doing anything illegal. Is it big? Is it because you're not playing by their rules?

Jesse Ringer: 14:25

Yeah, so they have a terms of service as those most platforms. But if you are trying to intentionally and consistently, you know, kind of beat their algorithm or gamify it and try and like cheat the rankings, you do it enough times and Google will ban you. If they yeah, it's really hard to get that turned around as well You'd have to like show that you've done the work, to be like hey, we're not trying to break your rules, because Google is still although we become too expected as like a public service. They are still a business at the end of the day. That you know, and if people don't trust those results, they're going to go wildfire.

Gary Pageau: 15:07

So I mean, you know, Microsoft's out there with Bing, they're ready, they're waiting.

Jesse Ringer: 15:12

Yeah, right, I'll go, and everything else that's out there right. I mean chat, gbt, how that evolves and stuff like that. It'll be really interesting to see how it goes.

Gary Pageau: 15:21

So do you see those kind of services, the generative AI like chat, gpt and things like that helping or SEO or kind of just being a tool you can use? But it also can be used for I wouldn't say ill, but for ill effect, because you know you're almost creating junk content.

Jesse Ringer: 15:44

Yeah, and I think it just depends on who's using it.

Jesse Ringer: 15:47

You know there are going to be people that go, hey, chat GBT, write me a blog post about this keyword, yeah, and they're going to put it on the web and then be like my great content.

Jesse Ringer: 15:55

But it's not great and the thing that the you know the chat GBT is of the world and those generative AI, it's an aggregate or an average of all of the content that came before you, right? So it's just going to be an average blog post. It's not going to be exceptional, it's not going to be unique and related to your brand. It's just going to be a piece of content that anyone could find anywhere. And so I do think that there's value in using these tools to kind of accelerate a lot of monotonous work. But if it's anything that is going to try to connect you with a customer and you with your audience, at the end of the day, you're going to need to write about it yourself. You're going to need to do that work because people want to do business with businesses and people that they, like no one trust, right? And if your content is super average, then we're obviously written by AI.

Gary Pageau: 16:50

I mean, that's the other side. I know who knows what's going to happen in a year, because this stuff is improving very quickly. But right now you can spot the AI writing a mile away, because it's super enthusiastic for one thing.

Jesse Ringer: 17:05

Oh man, the power words that they put into it. Yeah, but I think too to that point like if it does get better, more people will adopt it. Sure, and then again all the content will start to look the same Right At the end of the day, you still have to connect with your audience in some meaningful way, so so let's talk about connecting with the audience, right?

Gary Pageau: 17:24

So you know that's a valuable tool for SEO and just dealing with customers and whatever. There used to be a thing called bounce rate and things like that. Are you still measuring that? Is that still impacting SEO? People get there and bounce.

Jesse Ringer: 17:40

Yeah, there are some theories definitely that float around about the bounce rate from SEO and like from Google, and I know that's. Some prominent experts in the industry have talked about this pogo sticking effect of like if you click on the first result and then leave and go back and then click on the second or third result, like those second and third results will start to move up Right. But from a Google Analytics perspective, like bounce rate, I don't think matters a great deal. I personally don't put a lot of stock into it because it's a relatively easy metric to mess around with and like within your website. But also like if a visitor comes to your contact page, finds your store hours or finds your address and leaves, was it a bad experience Because the bounce rate's still gonna be really high?

Erin Manning: 18:28

But if people are, I think they want it.

Jesse Ringer: 18:30

Yeah right. So I don't think it's necessarily a good or bad metric, but I don't put a lot of stock into it in terms of like we need to optimize this page better, Because it depends on the intent, it depends on the information people are after, and it's all just kind of relative at that point.

Gary Pageau: 18:50

So somebody does a long blog post on 400 to 600 millimeter Nikon lenses and they're bouncing in five seconds. That's bad. But if someone's looking for store hours or when the next workshop is and they're only there for 10 seconds and then they bounce or less, then that's fine.

Jesse Ringer: 19:11

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I would consider the content that they're looking at. If you have a comparative blog post on the best lenses, you would hope that they are reading through all of that, if they don't click beyond that page. Is it about experience? Not necessarily, but the time on the page would matter, right, right, and so that's where you could kind of start to assess whether or not your content is useful. But, yeah, bounce rate in and of itself, as like a one metric kind of decision maker, I wouldn't recommend it.

Gary Pageau: 19:43

Okay, because I know that's one of the things that people used to really obsess about, right.

Jesse Ringer: 19:47

People aren't sticking on my website very much and I don't know what to do about it, and so bounce rate was always calculated by a person clicking anything on the page. So if you wanted to like bring down your bounce rate, you could just have a pop up at the very beginning and as soon as they clicked it, the bounce metric was negated.

Gary Pageau: 20:07

And so they could just carry on. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I thought about that. I know You've been doing this for 10 years, which is a century in internet time. Thank you Well, congratulations for being around for 10 years, right? I don't know if we're gonna say that, but also has it wildly changed over the years or is it more just like we kind of got the concepts early and now we're just tweaking, refining and trying to anticipate where the puck's gonna be, as opposed to where it is now?

Jesse Ringer: 20:41

Oh man, it's definitely changing. Obviously, with chat, gbt and AI, that's obviously a big part of it, but the other side of it is that people are changing. People are becoming much more savvy and aware of how to operate on search engines, how to engage with content and what they're after. Mobile devices obviously had a huge impact on that too, and so when I started, yeah, you could write you know, nikon cameras 20 times in a cohesive or in a mess of a sentence and still rank really well, whereas now you might rank for a little bit, but it's not gonna last, and so there's certainly a ton of change in that regard. You know, google's algorithms got much more sophisticated, and so you also have to remember all of these things that are just that much more mature than they were 10 years ago, and so you have to adapt to that. But I would say the best practices and like the kind of the expectations around keywords and content, like in good tech, it's like it's still the same, it's just more sophisticated.

Gary Pageau: 21:54

It seems to me like there's almost two schools of thought when it comes to this. It's like how can I follow the rules and regulations or how can I gain them to my advantage? Seems like there's two schools of thought there. Clearly you're in the first camp by hope.

Jesse Ringer: 22:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's always gonna be the two sides of it and for me, it always came down to longevity. The other way is always short lived and you're always having to chase the next thing, whereas the holistic approach, where you're thinking about the long-term impact of your work and the long-term success of businesses and your clients and so forth, like you're always just kind of like okay, what's gonna happen once I'm not working for them anymore Because we would get clients where they're like all. My previous SEO person was just garbage. They did all these crappy things and ruined my website and did the and I really hope nobody says that about us Unavoidable. Sometimes People are gonna that's gonna happen, but I would really hope that they were like oh, they were engaging in these shady things and it didn't work and they tricked me and my only hope is that nobody feels that they got cheated from our work.

Gary Pageau: 23:12

It's just one of those things where I think people have a lot of varying expectations, especially if people don't have a lot of experience in this. Right there, let's say they're running a. You know your day-to-day job is, you know, running a photo lab and you're more concerned about, hey, did my printer show up today to do the work, and do I have enough paper? And how many photo mugs do I have to make today? And all that and really optimizing your SEO is probably not, like we talked earlier, something you really want to engage in, but so you're almost not even sure how well it's working. I guess, at that point, right, and that's where I guess you, as a service provider, have to, like, learn to justify your existence.

Jesse Ringer: 23:53

Yeah, almost every day. It's almost a weekly thing these days, but yeah, it's one of those facets of like are. The nature of our business is really very much results oriented. You know, sure, it's based on performance and we have to be able to justify. You know how much traffic we're getting to their website and how many leads and how many sales are getting through the website and ensuring that the client sees that and understands that and knows where all of this fits into their broader business thinking Cause you, like you said, they got a million other things to care about before they get to SEO.

Erin Manning: 24:31

Right.

Gary Pageau: 24:32

But it's almost almost one of those things, though, where, if they see a drop off in web visits or customers or orders or something, that's one of the persons you're going to blame.

Jesse Ringer: 24:41

Yeah, yeah, totally, and you know SEO and Google and like it's a microcosm of the whole world too at times. So it can be, yeah, you're like yeah it might have been an algorithm update. It might be that, you know, the messaging isn't resonating the right way as it did a month ago, two months ago, and it could just be that fewer people are searching right now. Or maybe Google changed what was on those result pages. Yeah, you know, more ads, more videos, I don't know. Those things change all the time as well.

Gary Pageau: 25:12

So there's a lot of play in yeah. It's amazing how much power and influence you know one company can have on that and not be a monopoly.

Jesse Ringer: 25:24

Yes, exactly, and yeah, it's wild. And you know, even though my business and my career is built around Google and SEO, Google as a company is problematic to me in a lot of ways.

Gary Pageau: 25:39

Well, we're not here to talk about that, so let's talk a little bit about, you know, like four or five things maybe not that many, but three or four things somebody can do to get their approach SEO optimized. And one thing would be, of course, you know, look over your content. Second thing I would think would be as you said before, would be you know, have intent behind what you're doing. Don't just try and feed the SEO bees, but actually have an intent to do it. So it would be a couple more things that would make sense for someone who is in a business to look at.

Jesse Ringer: 26:15

Yeah, on the content front, I would say make sure that you have a landing page for each and every unique service that you offer. Okay, Making sure that those pages exist so that if I am, you know, looking for a new camera lens, I'm not being met with a bunch of tripods or bags before I get to those, but I want to sell bags though Great, but if I'm not looking for a bag, I'm not going to buy one, exactly Right.

Jesse Ringer: 26:49

So you have to be mindful of that, because if you clutter the experience with the things that don't matter to the person, in that mindset, they're not going to stick around. So that's a big part of it. The other one that I think is really important is make sure you have the right call to action for each page, because the call to action shouldn't be the same across the entire website Maybe it is, but rarely and make sure that the information that you're providing, like the next logical step, is the action you want them to do as it pertains to this. So if I'm looking at lenses and I'm like on the page looking at pricing, don't prompt me to sign up for your newsletter.

Jesse Ringer: 27:32

Prompt me to put it in my cart, right? Or don't ask me to listen to your podcast when I just need to add this to my cart and click sale. So that's the other side of it. Make sure that your ask, your call to action, matches the content that you have on that page, and if I read your blog post about the five best lenses out there, maybe I should sign up for your newsletter or maybe I should listen to your podcast. So align your experience with the content that's there and make it really easy for people to take action Right. Won't get in their way. Right. Like that'll serve you better than all the SEO in the world. Just like if they want to buy something, let them buy it.

Gary Pageau: 28:15

Get out of the way, well, amazon has taught us that right. I mean, that's really the gold standard for extracting money out of people's wallets is they'd make it really easy to buy stuff.

Jesse Ringer: 28:26

Yeah, absolutely yeah. Make it as simple as possible, because people don't have time or energy and they don't care that much about, like, the stuff they're buying. Not all the time anyway, but so.

Gary Pageau: 28:37

So, for example, though I mean I'm curious how this would fit right. I mean, you know, a camera dealer doesn't make a lot of money on hardware, right, they don't make money. Their margin isn't on cameras and lenses. I mean lenses they do make more money, but on a camera body they don't make hardly anything. But where they do make money is like a filter for that lens or a strap for that camera or a bag for the combo. So where would be a great place to introduce that sort of thought? As hey, once you put the lens in the shopping cart, when do you hit them up for the filter sale?

Jesse Ringer: 29:11

Yeah, that's a great question. Like yeah, the upsell and cross-selling is massive for this right. Like, so there's two areas. One you know you can have some people also bought right under that product on the product page, but also as they're checking out. Hopefully Shopify has some tools that'll allow you to do this.

Jesse Ringer: 29:31

If you're not using Shopify, like, there are other ways to go. Like recommended products, people also bought this stuff with this. You can also do a quick upsell after they've checked out. You know like go, hey, we noticed you just bought this. Here are some other great options to go with this. Let us know. But you can do it within the shopping cart, you could do it during the checkout process, and you can be right up on that page too. Like, I'm really big into snowboarding, so you have snowboard bindings and boots. If I'm checking out with a board, they'll be like hey, people also bought these bindings and these boots, and so you can do it that way. And one thing, though, to consider is just be mindful of what that ask is. Like if they just bought a lens, don't try and get them to buy another lens, because I'm sure those are pretty expensive. Right, start with like the smaller items, like a filter or maybe a case or strap like that kind of stuff.

Gary Pageau: 30:26

Right, yeah, that makes sense, because again, a lot of this, like you know, because I love the cross zone and I do see that on there I just wonder you know everyone wants to do it, but there's a right place to do it and that's really the important part is yeah, and, like every business, will be slightly different.

Jesse Ringer: 30:42

So I think it's worth testing it and making sure that it works for your business, because it's something that works for us Might not work at all for you, and what works for you might not work at all for me. So test it out and see what works and see what your audience like kind of resonates with.

Gary Pageau: 30:57

Okay, sounds good. So where can people go to get more information about method and metric and your snowboarding career?

Jesse Ringer: 31:08

I mean that career was shortly lived. But yeah, methodometriccom, and for all your listeners, we do have a free SEO competitor audit available. Yeah, so they can go in, tell us about your business and your competitors and we'll run an audit and let you know how you stack up to those guys in the SEO marketplace, and so it's fun.

Gary Pageau: 31:34

Where can they get that?

Jesse Ringer: 31:36

Yeah, we can put share that link in the show notes, but it's services slash. Seo, competitive analysis, all separate words yeah, on our website.

Gary Pageau: 31:49

So I'll definitely have to put that in the show notes, because no one's going to write that down. But thank you, jesse, for your time. I appreciate it. You've been a great because I've learned a lot about other people too, and best wishes for future success.

Jesse Ringer: 32:02

Yeah, thanks, Gary. Thanks for having me. This is super great.

Erin Manning: 32:05

Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel Society podcast. Read more great stories and sign up for the newsletter at wwwthedpixelssocietycom.