Creativity as a driver of photo business, with Wendi Flores and Steve Klinetobe

Gary Pageau of the Dead Pixels Society talked with Wendi Flores, of Foto Crush, and Steve Klinetobe, of Odd Comma. In this interview, Flores and Klinetobe talk about how photo companies can use creativity to boost sales and be more effective than ever before.

In this episode, you will learn the following:

1. How creativity is now a currency, and the need for brands to be emotively authentic to be successful.
2. Creative problem solving as a way to move the industry forward and the importance of having boundaries to be successful.
3. The power of photo and print to create a legacy, and how retailers have used photo to create value.

Flores is a well-known creative force in the photo imaging market. Established in 2011, Foto Crush was created to look beyond the industry's one-art-style-fits-all approach, to one driven by the creative pursuits of our customers. The company creates photo cards, stationery, and gifts for major retailers like Snapfish, Walmart, Walgreens, Fuji, and Redbubble. Odd Comma is a word-first agency founded by creative director and copywriter Steve Klinetobe. He has worked with some of the world’s largest brands: HP, Microsoft, Nike, Disney, Dreamworks, Sony, eHarmony, Amazon, Leatherman, and Nickelodeon.

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Transcript

Erin Manning  0:02  
Welcome to The Dead Pixels Society Podcast, the photo imaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau. The Dead Pixels Society Podcast is brought to you by Mediaclip, Advertek Printing, and School Photographers of America.

Gary Pageau  0:18  
Hello again and welcome to The Dead Pixels Society Podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau. And today we're joined by two guests. We have Wendi Flores, who is the strategic partner of Odd Comma, and Steve Klinetobe who is the Creative Director of Odd Comma and both of them are coming from the Pacific Northwest today. Hi, folks, how are you today?

Steve Klinetobe  0:40  
Hey, Gary, how are you?

Gary Pageau  0:42  
Good, good. You guys sound like you're raring to go. So first, Wendy, let's start with you. And your background. Before we get into the meat of today's discussion about creativity, your background has extensively been in photography, and you've had some photography clients in the past. So we've talked a little bit about your background there.

Wendi Flores  1:01  
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I graduated with a journalism broadcasting degree. So storytelling was always such a big part of my DNA. And then I worked for HP for a while, and I was kind of like a duck out of water. And one of our managers left and created print packs, which sold to Mattel. And then Steve and I met on this magical night of creativity. And we started working together, sort of in a consultancy that I had at the time. And then we partnered up and created Kirk curiosity group, which was a content, Creative Content Agency way before anyone really started talking about content. And from there, we started doing prod products and projects for big entertainment brands, like Disney and Sega. These guys paramount, you know, to add value to their products. And oftentimes, they would partner with hp. So there was a printable aspect. And then we started doing photo as part of that. And that's kind of how I fell into it. And then I started working with major retailers like Snapfish, and Fuji and Walgreens and Walmart. And that's really what my other business does is photo crush, it creates storytelling designs that are emotive ly authentic. And again, way before the industry really caught up to that. So it's always been part and parcel to everything that we've done. And I think even in the industry, there's still a lot of non creatives that are involved in the creative process. And certainly the tools don't lend themselves to creativity, I could wave a magic wand, and change those, you know, tools that are online or in the kiosk to be more consumer friendly. But we really focus on a lot of stuff that reaches a specific niche. And that's really what melts my butter is going after the pet market or the religious market, or the European markets where you really have to understand culture and, and how they use photo and things like that, as opposed to just stamping a new title on a US card. So that's really what kind of like, gets me kind of go and is highly creative. And I work with designers around the world with illustrative styles. And Steve certainly as part of that as well.

Gary Pageau  3:38  
Okay, so Steve, let's segue into your background and what ad coma actually is.

Steve Klinetobe  3:45  
Okay. Yeah, well, besides what Wendy and I created together back in the day, a curiosity group, that was an amazing experience, we had dozens and dozens of people working with us. And for us, it was it was awesome, from a creativity standpoint, but really what we learned during that time is, you know, companies and brands have a hard time expressing the emotional part of their business, as opposed to the marketing speak or the jargon that that so many companies use to describe what they do and talk to their consumers. So over the years, we've been, I've been honing the craft of writing brand narratives for companies that are emotive, that light, a fire that actually have heart and soul. So that's what Odd Comma is all about right now is creating brand narratives for companies, not just for how they message themselves externally, but actually more importantly, how they even describe themselves to themselves, how they talk to their employees, how they, how they tell their mothers what they do for a living, you know, so all that is just a great way and I think you know, where so many branding, agencies and so many copyrights just head straight towards the, the more technical aspects of a brand, we come at it specifically from writing, it's almost like a poem for the narrative that's, that's sings more than it than it just is bullet points.

Wendi Flores  5:17  
You know, and that might sound like, oh, whoo hoo self analysis, you know, let me get in touch with my personal feelings about stuff. But really, when you look at creativity and technology, technology has been expediting creativity for more people who don't have design skills or writing skills. And so you get closer and closer to those big entertainment brands, fashion brands that dive so deeply into that pool to generate income, you know what I mean? And, I mean, even like, with the photo stuff, it's the one product like a retailer should store you know, Sam's Club where you don't have to talk about tires, right? How amount of great can tires be, but you know, photo man dive deep into what's the one product, or it's reaching out and connecting because of photo, and even they're afraid to kind of go there sometimes. And I think the more people who get creative, the more they have to realize the level of expectation of that creativity, activity is actually nearing what, you know, Cartoon Network will do to grab you and make you watch it shows and that kind of thing. So I kind of feel like that's what's happening is, the masses are kind of moving closer, and have been to that level of storytelling. And, you know, Steve, and I have worked on a couple of projects with Odd Comma one actually led to a company that, you know, had a huge, we're talking millions or billion dollar acquisition out of that redefinition. So it has very practical usages. I mean, you can see it with the photo stuff. But you know, I think most companies, I think they're a little shy and afraid of going people,

Steve Klinetobe  7:06  
people don't connect with robots and algorithms they connect with, with other people and emotion. And so, you know, in fact, I would say, in this kind of age, we're seeing AI become to the forefront of communications, and we're seeing algorithms driving everything on E commerce, even just so many marketing functions that have been automated people. And I'm talking real human beings are craving connections, that are that are full of heart and full assault. And I think that's, you know, that is the power of this kind of work as it's counterbalancing. Not not erasing or not saying that other stuffs not valuable. It's just saying it's a counterbalance,

Gary Pageau  7:51  
you know, one of the, one of the things that I find interesting is the phrase and read a lot of marketing stuff, which I tend to do, and you see the phrase, authenticity, right? Gotta be authentic. And then we look at the imagery that is being used, it's almost all literally the same type of photography, the same type of, it's not authentic at all, it's just got human beings in it. And that was, you know, kind of interesting. I also think, you know, there's emotional appeals that are made, that are kind of, I don't know, like, what kind of research people do when they make these decisions. But I was talking to a group of people I was talking about in terms of marketing, we're talking about like, car ads, car ads used to be very technical, right? miles per gallon features, us maybe a little safety, but you know, that kind of thing. And now it's all about how much the car company loves you. Right? Subaru loves you and all that it does. Do you think that is actually the type of thing that resonates with consumers? Are they just doing it because they think that's what people want?

Wendi Flores  8:57  
Well, I think they're certainly that's the thing about creativity. I mean, let's talk about that. It's the heretic, it's the rebel Hustler, right? It's the person who's willing to smash the glass on the floor. And, and really look at that. And that's, you know, receive i where we're going out of curiosity, like, you know, you can come up with an idea rip someone off, you can come up with an idea, and then tweak it just a little bit, or you can turn it on its head and rethink it. And one would argue creativity is, you know, passed on through generations. It's like a time machine, you can go anywhere. So is there anything original, who knows, but authenticity is really, from the core of who you are, whether that's a brand or a person. And especially now, we it needs to be real, needs to be real to you. And, and, and people will sense that out using like, photo crush. Like we actually hand paint a lot of these on braid effects because you see the watercolor transition, it's organic, versus a computer generating it. Right? Exactly. You look at that, and you'd be like, well, that's a nice card, but something doesn't feel quite right about it when it's real. And I think the reason why it's so important now is because you have this need with how the world is going right now, coming off a COVID. You know, whether it's China or its political or whatever people are concerned, brands need to infuse urgent optimism. You know, what, and that's what he was talking about is that connection has to be real. And it's funny, because the reason why a company can't do this on their own find that place is because they've drunk the Kool Aid of the messaging of the company, the company sees the company through the company's eyes.

Gary Pageau  11:00  
It's like a mission statement is all Oh, God, like

Wendi Flores  11:03  
don't even start writing mission statements at HP. Like, we get 30 people in a room and like, we come up with a statement of like, I don't know, 300 words, but it never said anything. Because everyone was like trying to compromise with each other on these state, you know, sentences that literally were like pablum, because, you know, they were words that really didn't state anything. But we were all okay with it, you could sign off on it. It's just like that we were so far away from that kind of approach now. But if if you can't find that real authenticity on your own, it's because in a way, you've done what the company has asked you to see the company through the company's eyes. But the problem is you have to be more of an empath. And you have to put yourself in the position of that customer. And you have to go, Okay, how is that company's products going to integrate into my life? Because that's what I care about right now. Right? Like, how is it going to make me feel better about climate? Or how is it going to, like, entertain me to distract me from these issues? Or how is it going to help me come up with a solution? And we've been traveling that road for a while, but answer the question. I think when you see like people kind of copycatting other things, it's because they haven't done the heavy lifting of really diving deep into who they are, why they exist.

Steve Klinetobe  12:27  
Yeah, I mean, I think authenticity is, is one of the most overused words and creative briefs I've seen in 20 years. And sometimes, you know, this is where it gets in the way. And this is why I I like working specifically with founders and, and individuals who started a company because I'm like, why did you start this company, there was a passion there. And in a, an understanding of the market that over time through your different phases of business, you've lost a little bit of that, you haven't tapped into that mind for a long time, or you've had

Gary Pageau  13:00  
to delegate, or you delegate, to delegate, so you're out of touch with the day to day.

Steve Klinetobe  13:05  
Yeah, and then all of a sudden authenticity means, you know, what you think is authentic to the group. And, and honestly, you want to one of the things we we used to talk about a lot to some of our brands was, listen, sometimes being truthful and authentic is knowing and having a self awareness about your company. I mean, if you're, if you're a company that's, you know, producing a, I don't know, you know, like a toilet paper, you're not changing somebody's life, you know, and this drives me nuts. When companies come in and say, We're saving lives, we're changing lives. It's like, No, you're you're producing a product, right?

Gary Pageau  13:40  
It's exciting the product that you want, but if they don't buy yours, you're gonna buy another one.

Steve Klinetobe  13:46  
Exactly. So be authentic to who you truly are. And then understand your audience is really what that means. It means understand Authenticity. Authenticity, means that you, you understand who you're talking to, and what really is important to them. And it's rarely your product, it's usually their families, their taxes, their work, their school, or whatever,

Gary Pageau  14:06  
or the job or role they want their product to play. Yeah, I mean, I mean, if you're talking about you know, toilet paper, you want the toilet paper to do the job, but doesn't really matter that it's Charmin or because it hasn't happened. I

Steve Klinetobe  14:21  
really, really apologize for using that as a metaphor.

Wendi Flores  14:27  
It might matter to you if it's climate friendly. Yeah, mine made out of bamboo. And you might pay a little bit more because again, you want to know, what's an easy way for you because you can't tackle climate. The world is having an issue, the leaders of the world are having issues doing. So you know, you do your little thing and you're like, Okay, I'm gonna buy that bamboo bass paper. You know what I mean? Because I know it's better. Well, you know, it's

Gary Pageau  14:57  
interesting, you're sad because I recently had on the podcast, someone on the photo industry who is working in sustainability, and they're talking about that messaging, right for people in the printing and graphic arts industry, about not only being sustainable, but then conveying that right to the audience to the end user, because so they know that if they're printing on, you know, like you said, you know, a bamboo bridge that, you know, that is being sourced ethically and things like that. So I think there's gonna be a lot of people coming at that issue from a lot of different angles.

Wendi Flores  15:33  
Yeah. And, you know, oh, gosh, I read a lot about a lot of companies are just doing some amazing things. And they're small, you know, what I mean? And they have the passion to and solutions to really try to change the way people do things and and so a lot of like, OD comma focuses on his, you know, passion companies like that, you know, but like Steve said, maybe you've had a major reorganization, we look how many like the, you know, the tech world is, is little bubbles getting popped of record numbers, just kind of like, okay, bottom line up for me, how much more money can we squeeze out of this poor consumer, you know, the point where you're gonna go, Okay, do I pay my bills? Do I pay my for my medicine? Or do I buy a new iPad, or whatever, and, you know, we're going to find a way to not be the healthy consumers that we were, it's, it's just like this catch 22, you know, the more you force money out of us. So I think that, you know, a business who's lost sight of itself is also going to suffer, what's kind of happening right now, which is, profit at all costs is not a marketing strategy. You know what I mean?

Gary Pageau  16:44  
Right? So, let's talk about marketing strategy, because I want to get back to creativity within organizations, because I think that's where that's something people really struggle with. Right, in terms of, and I'm talking about, like, the typical dead pixels of society listener who is, you know, you know, runs a retail store, or maybe a photo lab with 40 people on up to a big production house, I may have a couple 100 people, you know, the challenge with creativity, in a workplace is is is from, from a traditional standpoint, is your lack of control, right? If you allow total creativity, is anything gonna get done? So, that's not really what you're talking about. So talk about how that's a bad way of looking at it. Yeah,

Steve Klinetobe  17:34  
I, you know, I've been in a big organization. Just recently, I was a chief creative officer for a company. And the idea of creativity was was really repellent to many of the leadership team, where they were like, what, we didn't, we don't want this It's chaos. And, and I, you know, I always said, it's, this is not a chaotic, adventure, creativity is not something that creates chaos, it actually is something that can actually improve efficiency and, and move beyond people just, you know, not thinking through and not problem solving their day, right. So creativity can be injected into any function, any process, as kind of a way to adapt that process and break it and make it something a little bit more fluid and challenging for the employee itself.

Wendi Flores  18:26  
Yeah, I always say, you want to be fearless, not reckless. And this is where again, you get into the bones of what creative is, if you want to know they are an individual who can tap into the childlike wonder that they remember, and yet have a control as to how to, like, bounce off of it. Such that you have parameters for which to be creative in, right. Like for photo crush, like I'm doing some pride cards right now for Walmart, which I was super thrilled about, like, on many levels, but I don't just like tell them, Okay, do some pride cards. You know, I take a product, a classic product marketing approach, product development approach, and I research trends, I certainly reached search art styles, I talked to people in the LGBTQ plus community, you know, you look at photos for inspiration. Then I put these mood boards together with, you know, graphic title options, photo options, and this artboard that they can pull creative from. Then I align that to a specific designer who has that illustrative skill, or art style, because when they do something they love, that's where you feel that authenticity. That's where you feel the love, right and the connection. And so it also gives them a platform to be creative within. It's a misnomer to think creatively. Just like you know, uncontrolled environments, I mean, that's not it at all, in fact, ask a creative guy to go into a paint store and pick out, you know, a paint sample and they are overwhelmed with choices. You've got to like, you have to have that control, but with a deft hand. Now, why is this important to the audience beyond being a designer or someone who does editorial or takes photographs. And that is, you know, creative problem solving is what's going to move the dial forward. Creativity is currency, the imagination age, all that stuff that you're starting to hear just means that you have to be flexible, that you have to be able to, you know, drive culture, force change, create value. And in an industry that, in my opinion, the photo industry has a laggard audience that waits for everyone else to do it before they kind of jump on board to do it. You can't do that anymore, it's just going to be replaced by someone who can do it better. And that's kind of an uncomfortable place to be. That's where it kind of Odd Comma comes in. Because, you know, not only can Steve and I help, and, and, you know, be empathetic and find that core of what makes those companies strong, we can also help them build a company that can wrap their mind around creative problem-solving at the core of what every job is, it takes some skill to do that. But that's really where you want to be. And then when you're around people who are like in the deep end of the pool of your brand and your passion, and that's where magic happens. That's where you see a lot of entrepreneurial companies start, you know, we start with that. And unfortunately, oftentimes, they get sold in bigger companies who then either, you know, take them off, because, exactly, or they monetize them to the point where they lose that core.

Gary Pageau  22:03  
We've seen that a few times in the photo industry, I think we could probably spend a good five or 10 minutes sharing examples that we've seen over the last few years. brands that have been purchased and have now disappeared. But you know, it's interesting to talk about creativity as an asset and a trend, when the news today is filled with artificial intelligence trying to do that roll with chat and G P T, I think I said that correctly and generative AI where you can create images basically out of a text stream? is creativity going to be passe in the future? Or is it just going to be automated to some extent where it's?

Steve Klinetobe  22:49  
Yeah, I'm not sure. Either one of those I? Well, for one, let me just point out that, that I often say that in in movies and books, when we're taken over by AI, it's usually name something cool, like Skynet, or something like, we're gonna be, we're gonna be overrun by chat. GPT it's just awful. I like to read, I'd like the opportunity to rename it something more sinister. But I actually think that, that, you know, I've come across this, and so many discussions as of late with clients and people, other writers and people in my industry, who are expressing both fear and, you know, like, uncertainty as to what the future of your, of creativity, whether it's writing or or, or, or art, or even music for that standard. And I actually think, you know, I think that's the wrong way to look at it is, I think, embrace it, and say that this is a great tool. This is a tool that creatives can use. But more importantly, that non creatives can use to create and make things make art and make, you know, their thoughts and their and their, their ideas come to life. But that said, I think that what we're trying to say here is that the emotion part, the human being part in the fire, and what drives people is the counterbalance to the algorithms and the bots that are driving, you know, all these different industries like marketing, any commerce and, you know, I think there's there's going to be I don't like the word pendulum, because that means that it's swinging back and forth. I actually think it means it's a counterbalance, right, the creative class has to, to step up into the emotion of what drives their art, and make that even brighter and louder and more vivid than I think AI ever worked it.

Wendi Flores  24:43  
Well, and I think too, that what distinguishes what everyone else can do from what breaks through, you know, is, is that emotive heart and differentiator and thought, you know, you look at Maya Zaccheus anime films, you know what I mean? If you think about an industry that is, you know, computer generated and that kind of stuff, and the poetry and the beauty of those films, like elevate them almost above animation, right, like, and that guy didn't come up with it, because he, he let the tool take over his creative process, you know, he mastered that animate tool at the time, the CG graphic stuff and created something that was just exquisitely beautiful. And, you know, again, the core of who you are the core of who he was the stories that he was read as a child, you know, his visual and imaginative world, like, that's what broke through. And it always is, because that's what creativity is. It's the it's like I say, it's, it's the heretic in the room. But as long as they don't go crazy, you know, and chaotic. And that's where you have that kind of control or those boundaries. Everyone needs to get on board and be more comfortable with that. But that's a great thing about technology. Right? It's helping everybody, even if you're not schooled in that art.

Gary Pageau  26:14  
Yeah, I mean, I just think it was when you think of the analog to digital transition that photography went to through, right. I mean, that's a classic example of people adapting new business processes, and new things happened there. But I think when you get into the AI realm, you eventually kind of delve into an area where instead of being a tool, it's actually creating content, right? If you turn on Photoshop, and say, open new file, and you don't do anything else, nothing's going to happen. Right? Whereas you can put a prompt into an AI thing, and something will happen. So I guess I agree totally what you're saying, I don't think creativity is going to go away, I think it just, it's going to have to, it's going to raise the stakes, right? Like you said that it's going to make people who are at the creative side, differentiate themselves even more, the challenge, I think will be is on the commerce side, it was there enough of an audience there to support that creative person, right? Because if the mainstream stuff is being generated by AI, you know, I'm saying

Steve Klinetobe  27:21  
I believe that we will always find our way being as adaptive as we are as human beings versus you know, AI, which will only get better at this, I mean, that's, that's only gonna get better the art is going to be created, you know, you might be able to walk in there one day and to say, create podcast and it makes up you know, two people who are better looking than windy and I and sound better, and make a great podcast. But I ultimately, I think that, you know, if, throughout all these technologies, if, you know, it's always comes with the Doom part of it, like our jobs are done, right, it's replace us. But in so many, it's so rare that it's actually ever done anything except create new problems that we have to solve, right. And so it's going to be our job, creative class, individuals that will will come through with a totally new perspective on RT and a totally new perspective on on writing, and music and all these things.

Wendi Flores  28:24  
Exactly. They, you know, we see that tool as a challenge, not as not as, like our robot overlord coming to overtake us. Now, you know, if you just accept it, and you know, the whole matrix thing, and you don't take the red pill, then, you know, yeah, you're gonna be, you know, replaced by a robot that can do your job better. Like, I really believe that's true, but it's the thoughtful person who's not afraid of that kind of innovation or breaking the mold or running ahead, not just behind or way behind what, you know, the current trend tells you to do. Like I said, like that worked. Okay. And we've gone through this before, how many templated back ends have we gone through how many templated you know, art designs have there been? And the trouble is, and I promise you do this, especially in the photo industry, everything starts to look the same. Let me ask you if you're Walgreens and you're you know, Snapfish like why do you two exist you know, if you carry exactly the same stuff, well, guess what Walgreens you know, customer is different than Snapfish. This customer, or in the case of Walgreens was once led by an eastern Indian in charge of the photo department. He said let's do Diwali cards. And I'm like, I'm in you know, but you know, no one was doing Diwali. You know what he did? He built a business where people who want to Walley cards now come to Walgreens for Diwali, and, you know, the other retailers are starting to get into it. So, you know, you just have to have that confidence. You know, courageousness to Not just want to fall in line. And I think that's the hardest instinct to fight against, you know, and as a business owner, you know, you're like, oh, what's everyone else doing? And you have to be aware of that. But it's more important of what you're doing and how you're doing it.

Gary Pageau  30:14  
Yeah, I think you're right. Because I mean, you know, honestly, you know, you know, a lot of the photo industry, people, you know, no one ever really gets penalized for being the second in the market. Right. So, making that leadership job is really almost open at this point. I mean, I think there are people doing things in certain categories or certain products. But there really isn't an industry leader per se, who is driving the market, per se.

Wendi Flores  30:46  
No, and I mean, I remember being in a meeting, and this is what, like, across vendors and retailers, smartphones kind of started blowing up and like, there was a leader of the industry going, we don't know what to do, you know, we're all gonna die. No one's gonna print anything anymore. And I'm like, no, they're gonna take more photos. And if you engage them, and Gary, you know, infotrends, you know, I'm a big fan. They prove this. Like, if you're new to photo, not the current market, but new, which usually means younger, and you engage, and they understand emotionally what they want, right? They know what really melts their butter. So you can't just do the same old Martha Stewart art cards, like, if you engage, will actually end up doing more than what are an audience will do. Because why? Because photo print is legacy. Digital is, you know, a transitional thing. But you want something that, you know, years from now, someone's going to open up and say, let's tell a story here with photo print. I hate when people throw up their hands and go, Well, I guess we're all doomed. Let's get out of the business and try something else. Right? You just you're not trying hard enough. And if you're not going to if being status quo is your comfort place and you don't want to move beyond that, then maybe you shouldn't be in the industry.

Gary Pageau  32:09  
Because Because Because if you think about it, the industry for 150, some years has been driven by creativity. Right. And but yet many of the practitioners people in the businesses are very process orientated. And those two don't always jibe.

Wendi Flores  32:26  
No, well, I remember, you know, I think it was at one of the PMAI or ces things that we were doing. And this consultant was telling me because you know how photocards started, I'm like, how he was? Well, you know, retailers wanted to give their customers something to do while they were waiting for their prescriptions, because the margins on prescriptions are so large. And he said, so, you know, guy behind the counter printing off your photos, like, you know, only and one after another? Well, one day he put this like, really bad vector base computer generated clipart on on a photo and called it a card. And so as a creative what, what, what you see is the reason why they did that is it had no borders to it, you could stretch that art across every product within the scope from a poster to a card without ever having to really mess with the art file. And, and that's where the tools were built for that kind of art. And I remember Fuji asking me even a few years ago, they were like, well, what if we went back to that I'm like, you wouldn't sell anything, because, you know, you look at artifact uprising and minted and people want the art that's going to speak to them. That means illustrations, that means borders, that means photos that are tilted vertical text, you know, whatever it takes. That's what they want. They want the professional, beautiful experience, not something that they could do in Word on their computer, right, which you could do with art. So, you know, you've got to look at that industry. That's why the tools are so bad. But we have pushed that agenda forward of reaching out to individuals and groups and people who love the thing they love the most and want to express that in a photo story. I think like pet, and dog and things like that, like I did a series for Walgreens. And we looked at the top 10 breeds and I looked they all had different dog styles. So we did this whole series based off of that. And it's the cheapest thing to test. Because let's say poodles really take off right? Well then keep doing poodle Oh, well, that didn't What about Schnauzers? You know, it's like telling the back end to change its back and in order to be able to sell to a niche market. It's, it's an exploration. Which brings me to kind of like the basis of everything in my mind is being relentlessly curious. That is something where you just want to figure it out. You don't want someone to ever stop you from from that need. Need to problem solve it or puzzle it out. And if you don't have those people on your staff number one, you're overpaying for a bunch of people who are doing redundant jobs because you don't have the core people who are going to really move the needle for you, or the passion anymore for the business. But that's to me, the beginning of everything. It's the Alpha and Omega,

Gary Pageau  35:21  
speaking of Alpha and Omega, how can people learn more about od comma and your business and how to reach you?

Steve Klinetobe  35:31  
Well, oddcomma.com is the best place to go. We are Wendi and I are just now forming this entity together. pulling together our talents and our experience together. But you know, the truth is we work so well together. We're just making this happen very quickly. So oddcomma.com You can reach me at Steve@oddcomma.

Gary Pageau  35:55  
And Wendi, how can people reach out to you? You've got like, several entities people can contact you what's the best way?

Wendi Flores  36:01  
You know for photo crush? It's just Wendi at Foto Crush FOTOcrush.com. Like I have a crush on you. You know I can parlay with Steve on any Odd Comma questions through that email too. It's just easier than me giving you a list of emails. So

Gary Pageau  36:28  
great. Well, thanks Wendi and Steve, great to see you and I look forward to seeing future projects from you coming up.

Wendi Flores  36:36  
Thanks, Gary. It's been a lot of fun. Great, Gary. Thank you.

Erin Manning  36:40  
Thank you for listening to The Dead Pixels Society Podcast. Read more great stories and sign up for the newsletter at www.thedeadpixelssociety.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai