Discover the transformative journey of IMG.LY's Eray Basar as we traverse the landscape of tech innovation and product development. In this candid conversation with Gary Pageau of the Dead Pixels Society, Basar shares the highs and lows of starting a tech-focused agency that launched a popular Twitter photo service and the subsequent pivot to a product development powerhouse. He shares IMG.LY's the importance of adaptable business models, the advantages of an agency's perspective in product creation, and the art of learning from your audience to spearhead product innovation.
Venture into the complex world of tech licensing, Basar decodes the intricacies of monetization and the delicate art of pricing pioneering technologies. The discussion navigates the challenges of the printing industry, adapting marketing strategies to the unique visual languages of different social platforms, and considering the future impacts of artificial intelligence on the field.
Energize your sales with Shareme.chat, the proven texting platform.
ShareMe.Chat ShareMe.Chat platform uses chat-to-text on your website to keep your customers connected and buying!
Mediaclip Mediaclip strives to continuously enhance the user experience while dramatically increasing revenue.
Discover the transformative journey of IMG.LY's Eray Basar as we traverse the landscape of tech innovation and product development. In this candid conversation with Gary Pageau of the Dead Pixels Society, Basar shares the highs and lows of starting a tech-focused agency that launched a popular Twitter photo service and the subsequent pivot to a product development powerhouse. He shares IMG.LY's the importance of adaptable business models, the advantages of an agency's perspective in product creation, and the art of learning from your audience to spearhead product innovation.
Venture into the complex world of tech licensing, Basar decodes the intricacies of monetization and the delicate art of pricing pioneering technologies. The discussion navigates the challenges of the printing industry, adapting marketing strategies to the unique visual languages of different social platforms, and considering the future impacts of artificial intelligence on the field.
Energize your sales with Shareme.chat, the proven texting platform.
ShareMe.Chat ShareMe.Chat platform uses chat-to-text on your website to keep your customers connected and buying!
Mediaclip Mediaclip strives to continuously enhance the user experience while dramatically increasing revenue.
Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the photo imaging industry's leading news source. Here's your Gary Pageau. The Dead Pixels Society podcast is brought to you by Mediaclip, Advertek Printing and Independent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau:
Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast. I'm your host, Gary Peugeot, and today we're joined by Eray Basar, IMG. LY in Berlin, Germany. Hi Eray, how are you today?
Eray Basar:
Hi, Gary, I'm fine, thank you. Thanks for having me.
Gary Pageau:
It's good to have you here. It's funny as we were talking before, we've already had kind of a long pre-discussion before this and I just thought your story the company story was so interesting that I said, well, we got to have you on the podcast. Now here we are, a few days later actually doing the podcast. But for those people who weren't listening in on our private conversation a few days ago, tell me about you and how you got started with your company.
Eray Basar:
All right, so that dates back to I don't know 2010, something like that. So I co-founded an agency called Nine Elements back in the days, and we were always focused on everything in between design and technology before it actually became super cool and then we actually started also like getting a deep interest into product development, and so we tried different things in our careers, and one was a Twitter sharing service. So back in the days, twitter didn't have this feature natively in their app, so they were relying on third-party services. We were not the first, but we thought, when we looked around and looked into the different services, we thought you can design them much better. And we also had a really cool domain which was . So we created this Twitter photo sharing service, which actually really took off in terms of eyeballs. We had a million of users and lots of views. But yeah, I think everyone can figure out how this story ended. Basically, the lesson learned was never rely on a third-party ecosystem.
Gary Pageau:
I don't build your business on an ecosystem, because that is just too fragile For those who don't remember, what specifically happened was that Twitter said yeah, we'll just build that into our own platform, and it kind of disenfranchised, if you will, twitter and and all these other services.
Eray Basar:
Yeah, they did it in a quite aggressive way. So, first of all, they built their own the capability to themselves on a sweet, honest point. I'm not criticizing that because, to be fair, I have to criticize them for not including that earlier. But they also called us and said we're going to restrict your API. This is quite unfair, isn't it? You built your business on top of that. I mean, to be fair, we really didn't build a business. It was a side project, so we took it with a grain of salt, but we were like, okay, whatever, let's do something else.
Eray Basar:
Yeah, IMG. LY , was like dormant for a specific period of time and then we had to build a photo editor in a project for a customer and then we basically built it in a way so that we can reuse it across different products and projects we had.
Eray Basar:
It was really important for us, this reusability component, and that was quite a good idea, I guess, because after that we open sourced part of it. We got some traction, we had some smaller customers knocking on our door, we had the first licensing deals, then customers became bigger and eventually we were like, okay, this is no longer a site hustle, we should do that full time. So, together with a few people from NetElements, we basically, yeah, spun out of NetElements and reused the brand because we thought that's a great fit, because we also knew it's not only going to the photo editor, we want to go somewhere else. Actually, it's a much broader spectrum in terms of what we want to deliver for customers and, yeah, was a great fit, so we just used that. Every now and then there's still people coming to me and say, yeah, I know that brand. Like I'm back in the days and we were like, yeah, there is a good possibility.
Eray Basar:
And we were like yeah.
Erin Manning:
I'm going to start a day.
Gary Pageau:
I was like, yeah, I'm going to start a day Back when Twitter was Twitter and Elon before Elon. So I did this interesting thread here that I kind of want to pull out a second. Do you think your experience as an agency of kind of what you want, what you kind of were looking for in a creative service informed your development better than, I'd say, some basement who thinks he knows what people want?
Eray Basar:
Yeah, in many ways it did. And then again, I also think that from an agency perspective, it's always very trivial to say, okay, we actually want to go product, but then I see so many people failing with that approach as well. There is different challenges that you have, but definitely you're slightly more informed, so you and you can start using your own dock food. Right, that's the most important thing. And you know like my learning was actually because we did many different things. So we did the photo sharing service.
Eray Basar:
One of our designers created a hugely successful sound cloud app, but we had the same problem. Then, you know, they shut it down because third party service, terms of service, et cetera and we were more successful than they were, and I can give you more examples, but in the end, my learning was so these are all like domains that are very customer centric, but as an agency, your asset is basically more B2B right. You have your developers, you have your product people. So this is the audience that you should know pretty well and you should be connected with. So, yeah, from there on, you can definitely get more momentum, faster than probably if I was like working in my basement as a sole developer.
Gary Pageau:
Right, right. So when you say it came up with a photo editor, what was that timeframe and what did that entail? Because right now that means something else. Completely right, it might be, yeah, yeah, but I mean, was it just rudimentary cropping and resizing and what was that like? 1.0 product? What was that?
Eray Basar:
Well, the 1.0 product was just a web editor and it was just cropping, transform like rotate the image and filter. Obviously, filter was back then a really hot thing. Adjust right brightness, contrast, maybe. I think we already have like text so you could overlay text on stickers maybe. But that's it. That's pretty much everything that we offered. But that was already enough, right, because we already Took off a heavy load of you know, a products developer, Because they need to. If they build it themselves that it would take them month and with our solution it took them, you know, just couple of lines of coats, so it was and obviously you're constantly rubbing it and improving it, whereas you know they don't have the bend with the do it because they're doing 17 other things.
Eray Basar:
Exactly so. We added iOS native and and also Android SDKs and then we became the first solution in the market that was cross platform and you know like consistent across all platforms and all these different things. That helped us a lot. You know like boost our solution. And then, basically, a couple years later, we like thought, why not adding video into the mix? So we actually also had an MVP for video. Right, it was very, very basic. So it was basically the photo editor, but it had a trimming function so we could add all the photo editing things like filter etc. But it was not like. It was not like the most useful video editing Tool, but it was useful enough for us to see if there is demand. And, yeah, if there was. And we grew from there quite a bit.
Gary Pageau:
So you're primarily providing technology to their companies. Now, you know, some people who aren't familiar with that Business will ask, like myself, you know. So how do you make money doing that? You know, as a license fee? Is that a call per project? Is it? I'm just curious whether you're that, can not my skills? Obviously, you got a team. You got to pay them, yeah, and you know you've got to constantly be developing and creating new things and we're gonna talk about some of those, some of those cool things You're developing. But I'm just curious about the business side, since, very different than what you were doing before in terms of the business model, yeah, so the way it works.
Eray Basar:
We we take a licensing fee, but the pricing varies a lot Depending on customer size, the use case and you know, like, how much engagement their users have with with the SDK. But we're kind of pioneers in our field, right. There is not a lot of different SDK companies that have grown to a specific size in the PDF space. There is a few already, so they were actually earlier than us. But generally, like, coming up with, you know, the right pricing and all these things are quite challenging because there is not like a book that you can read and then everything is clear.
Eray Basar:
I don't know that. It's a lot of experience, it's a lot of talking with customers and really you have basically poking your finger deep into kind of this idea what is the value of your product within the context of the customer? Because, if I mean we, we're not winning if the customer overpays and turns after two years because nobody's using it or, like you know, because they're just paying too much and Economics don't work for them. At the same time, we also don't want to be like underpaid right, like we we had like actually cases where you know, we had customers that were basically just wrapping a tiny bit around our SDK and selling that in the App Store. So basically they were just reselling our solution into a different market, which we usually prohibit, right?
Eray Basar:
Yeah, that's not super legal or super no, it's not like you know, people don't read the terms of service, and so we saw that and then we're like, okay, they make like 50k per month off our SDK. It's a good understanding of you know how much value we can actually provide into specific markets, right?
Gary Pageau:
And now have you done anything like that with a direct-to-consumer app, just to see how that? Or do you just only work with B2B type things?
Eray Basar:
now, I mean, we did a few experiments, because that doesn't hurt at all. But anything else, like you know, we want to be focused right now on Just one thing, and that one thing is already quite enough, right. And you know the other thing, it would be just Huge new thing and a lot of workflow, a lot of de-focusing, and I think that wouldn't be the right approach for now.
Gary Pageau:
Now, you know, I don't want to get into like going through your catalog, but you kind of have it always from my second industry, kind of like all the basis covered, right, you've got a kind of a design tool, a camera tool, a photo editor and a video editor. You're going to kind of walk through where those fit for different customers.
Eray Basar:
Yeah, so maybe it helps to give you again a little bit more of a context. Sure, sure.
Eray Basar:
And how we, where we're transitioning right now. So we started with the photo editor, then we added video head into the mix and eventually we basically went back to the drawing board. Because, you know, we had lots of customers, we had experience, but then we also thought what's next? And then there was, like a in my team. There was a lot of kind of thoughts into basically building a technology that allows us to build different editors in quite, you know, in a short time, because we understood that first of all, the requirements change from industry to industry. So print is one thing, but then you look into social media, it's another thing, while we see there is always a common space as well, right? So if we kind of fix or solve the common problems and then create more individual solutions for different industries, then we would have a much better market fit and then we would also be more in the.
Eray Basar:
What I always say is like the center of the customer's problem, like a photo editor is always nice to have and there is value in that.
Eray Basar:
But ultimately, if you take out the photo editor, your business will still go right, except that you're one of those that are just wrapping everything around or SDK. But with our new solution we could be sitting right in the center of a customer's product. We can take off so much work and it can be templating, layouting, it can be complex workflows, and we wanted to have like this flexibility, but also like the vision was really to carve out the specific use cases, starting from printing to like social media, but then create more specialized, more products that just fit better into these specific problems right. So, for example, also like we have lots of customers that came to us and say we want to build something like TikTok or Instagram Reels stories, and I definitely see that. I mean not that you necessarily want to compete with TikTok, but you could do this for a specific niche or you could actually do this for a market tech which provides basically content for these platforms.
Gary Pageau:
Or you want to do like a branded experience. Right, let's say you're a theme park, yeah, and you want to have this built into your theme park app, for example.
Eray Basar:
Absolutely Exactly, and so the solution we had before like with a video editor, for example was very generic. It would be a good MVP, probably for most of the customers. But then to take it to the next step, that is what we did, right, and now you can really like. We have a new release coming up in a couple of days. It will be basically this new SDK with video support for mobile, and it will be an amazing upgrade. Right, and the things that you can build from there are just so much more than what we actually already offered with the video editor.
Gary Pageau:
Sure, I mean, obviously, for a lot of my audience, print is the thing, and so you've got different types of print, but you've also got like non-standard print, like postcards and things like that, and you can talk a little bit about how you see print falling within your world of being on all these different communication platforms and all of different requirements, different use cases and different monetization models.
Eray Basar:
Yeah, the good thing about print is the business model is clear. Right, we have many customers in exciting new spaces, but with these spaces, it's not clear yet how they will make their money. Right, they have money, but it's not because they have a working business model, but because, simply, there is a lot of hype and they do really exciting new stuff. But with print, it's very solid Exactly how that game works. Every time somebody sells a print, there is money in the game. So this is a proven business model. And for us, of course, when we start partnering with customers in that space, it's easier to have all sorts of negotiations because the value that we provide is clear Now, depending exactly on what we will deliver.
Eray Basar:
And the second thing is also that I've seen that a lot of the activity in the printing space is also like going towards like instant gratification of basically your content. So we're talking about templates a lot. We're talking about a very simple way to basically put your content into something and make it much more appealing. Right, it can be on a B2B level, but it can also be very consumer, and so this is where we hook in with our technology, because we believe that we can offer quite a simple way for customers to basically own these kinds of trends and basically capitalize on what's going on. And at the same time, I also think that design has become much more important to the printing industry as well, and very, very underrated still Right. So I see some players in the printing market and I see the templates they basically offer. It's just horrible. It looks really like.
Gary Pageau:
No, no, don't mince words. What do you really think?
Eray Basar:
Oh, that's what I really think.
Gary Pageau:
Don't sugarcoat it. Don't sugarcoat it. There is room for improvement right.
Eray Basar:
So I really think that there is a lot of potential in quality of the content, the presets that you provide for your customers, a lot of room for improvement. And yes, it's not like a very simple thing, because many customers are now acquainted with very KPI-driven processes for their products and I think it's not always helpful, because the quality of your product does not necessarily immediately create better conversions. It creates something else. It creates longer-lasting customer relationship, it creates a huge brand value and eventually, I'm pretty sure it creates also a bigger basket for your customers. But you have to use it.
Gary Pageau:
Well, it's one of those things where you have to look at it from a standpoint of which I think people are getting away from mainly because of urgency to generate revenue, sort of the old chestnut of the lifetime value of a customer, right, you know, if you get someone to download your, your app, you know, I think there used to be a belief. You know, we're gonna build a relationship with that person over time, and now it's like, no, I need to make as much money off that person as soon as possible because they're gonna probably delete it and move on to something else.
Eray Basar:
Yeah, yeah, that's true. I mean there is like a lot of dynamics in place, but in the end you still know there is people that need printing. But yeah, I think one thing that we're actually Doing in some ways, we're commoditizing this market a little bit in In a way that you know, a smaller company today Is now able to use our technology and provide really great editing experiences for you know, like More complex printing products and also like the print on demand. Space has also helped commoditizing that space, because that was easy to do like an MVP and just see if you know the combination of things and maybe smart marketing or like a smart targeting Would help you actually build a business probably not gonna be a billion dollar business, but it's still gonna be something right and that we see that actually we see customers doing it.
Gary Pageau:
Yeah, well, I mean, you know I don't know if commoditization is the word I look at it as more of a creating More useful tools for people so they do more of it, right, you know? It's sort of like the idea behind. You know, the the one-click shopping that Amazon pioneered, right? You know, e-commerce was was very difficult before that, and so people did not shop online as much. As it became easier to transact, people bought more online, and I think people will create more online if all the tools are there that they want when they want them, and they have access to the templates they want and the content they want and the features they want, no matter the app. They're in, right, so they could be in a cheap print app and it still has the same features as, maybe, a more Premium app. That, does, you know, aims at a higher demographic right, and I think that. I think that sort of approach helps everybody, right, yeah?
Eray Basar:
Yeah, I agree, I totally agree. There's really again, I also like last time I've been to you know different events where I had, like lots of Conversations with people from the printing space. There was, like this, this idea of storytelling, sure, which is actually not a new idea, right, which is just, I mean, always follow the same concept. You want deep engagement, so you have to create products that do more than just. I think in every business the same thing. How do you build a mode? Right, it's difficult to build a mode if you just allow people to tap on it, on a Button, and then it prints a photo. Well, I mean, that's nice, but what else can you offer, right?
Gary Pageau:
Yeah. So tell me a little bit about you know kind of your newest thing, that kind of seeing that you know this full-blown kind of creative platform. It's really like taking aim. I think it's some of the players that have kind of pioneered this approach so you could actually have this within your site. Let's say, for example, you were a Lay, let's say a B2B Printing site, so you could have this full-blown Marketing tack platform within your site, right. And then it's not just print, it's, you know, creating social media graphics, it's all these other things right.
Eray Basar:
Yeah. So with this solution, basically you can do all the different things. You can have a very simple photo editing solution, but you can also have, you know, template based workflows. Then you can have an authoring system for your own back end where designers can create the templates. So you can make it quite easy, like to update new content, push new content into, you know, the customer facing editor. You can do automations. You can just kind of take the editor entirely out of the equation because this SDK is headless first. So every function that we have is basically available through an internal API, and we're right now just exploring what's possible with that approach as well, because I think, yeah, we just built like this really sophisticated technology and it took us quite a while.
Gary Pageau:
Yeah it's, it's quite a. I wouldn't say it's extreme, but it's. It's got a lot to it.
Eray Basar:
Yeah, definitely, and, of course, like one challenge is that we started quite grow with it. Right, it was like this design editor and Then we we started focusing on different industries to basically improve the offering and the packaging and the out of the box experience for developers, the configurations that we have, and, again, like the workflows which are super interesting to us, like because I think this is something that we see again and again, whether you're in the printing industry or you like doing market tech or at tech or you know whatever digital tech you actually do templates and and pre configurations and design itself has become an important asset, right, and how do you facilitate the creation of that? And, like when I talked to some, some like players in the printing industry, like they're super frustrated Because they're not able to push new content into their system easily.
Eray Basar:
It's just a huge pain, a huge, huge pain, and it takes a lot of time, different stakeholders and it could be so easy right, it could be just Clicking on a publish button and then it's out, and then you're able to cater much better to, kind of the needs of today, because I think that type of content needs to be refreshed, it needs to stay up to date. Then we're like having the big problem, or this challenge of Different formats. Right, I have just One design, but I want to create like 16 different variations for 16 different aspect ratios. How do I do that? And right, exactly, problems.
Gary Pageau:
We're trying to tackle with our system.
Eray Basar:
Yeah, that is one of the things that I think is, you know, a challenge today for anybody.
Gary Pageau:
Their marketing or print or whatever is. You know people are Consumers, end users, right? Or our multi platform? Right, in the sense that you know there are this social media platform? Right, in the sense that you know there are this social media platform. They're using this social media app. You know tick tock, instagram, whatever, and all of them are just slightly different and even like the visual language is Different, right, I mean you don't, if you see, like tick tock, how people express themselves on tick tock, it's not the same as how they may express themselves on Facebook.
Gary Pageau:
Yeah, it's, it's a different visual language and you know someone's trying to reach all those people's, got to figure out all the different ways to communicate in the appropriate venue, because the last thing you want is kind of doing the Steve Buscemi, hey, fellow kids, kind of thing. Remember the meme where the guy is like the older kid trying to be with the younger guys, kind of thing. So so. I knew for trying to approach that.
Eray Basar:
One thing that came to us more recently is because we started our video support with this new platform as well, Right, so that came into the mix after we started. You know, the first space was basically the design edge or the templating, etc. Now we are adding like video, as an overall functionality with a lot of detail to it, and now we see many of our customers they start like saying, okay, this is actually super valuable, right, Because we're not talking about specific formats but we're also talking about different media that runs in that format. So if I have a TikTok, I probably want to do video, while you know, if I'm doing something stationary, well, I can't, but I still want to have one system that helps me.
Eray Basar:
Outing that all. That's probably not now the printing industry, but again, a lot of marketing tech is really relying on that, because if you look into a brand, a brand usually does both things. There is always need for print, but there is so much more need for all the digital you know, to serve all the digital channels in a most efficient way, like you know, without any clutter, without you know getting yourself in the way. So this is where we also see a huge trend and where we're kind of really excited because we're really well positioned. We have, you know, one platform that is able to basically serve all these different formats in the best way.
Gary Pageau:
Well, I think what's happened is, you know, marketing or printing or whatever, whatever you want to call it, right, it was sort of like it was print first, right, I'm going to come up with a printing piece, whether it's, you know, a magazine ad, if it's a postcard, if it's whatever and then they got into digital, right, and now it's kind of flipped the script, where people are tended to think digital first and then print is almost an after.
Gary Pageau:
So I think it's important, whether it's either printing pictures or printing ads or, you know, commercial pieces is that, ellie's print is part of that equation through a platform like yours? Right, it's not something else you do. It should be part of your everything you do, right? It's sort of like you don't put all of your pictures. You don't print every single one of your pictures. You store them online, you share them in social media, but printing them should be part of that conversation and it should be done very easily, without having to jump to another app or change your UI or just something completely freaky just to get to. You know, it should be as easy as that. Again, the one click shopping.
Eray Basar:
Yeah, I absolutely agree, and I think there's also an interesting spillover effect, because you know there was a time when templates became quite popular for stories.
Eray Basar:
Yeah, it was when Unfold, I think, was one of the first apps and it was that easy. It was just like basically what you would consider as frames, put your own photo in it. But it was so simple and it was such a good experience that we also thought why don't you provide that for print? Right? And then eventually you could see some players in the printing industry moving more towards this kind of simplistic idea, like create your photo, your postcard or your greeting card, just in a very similar way, like you know, very simplistic template, pool template, though, right, like it has to look modern, right, but it's very similar UX. And suddenly you feel like these two areas, which are actually not very close, right, you have, like, social media space and you have the printing space, but still there is like this common thing and you can take one experience and basically really like project it to the other. In some cases it makes a lot of sense and it can be very beneficial.
Gary Pageau:
Right. So one thing we haven't talked about is sort of like the hot button in the industry, and you know, we know we have crazy amount of time. But I kind of want to talk about where you see sort of the impact of AI in kind of the future of what you're doing, because it's obviously a tool a lot of people are using, but what's your approach to it?
Eray Basar:
Yeah, so we are not going to release yet another model to this world. I think there's companies that focus on it and they're doing a great job. Yeah, and obviously, data. You know we don't own that much of data that we could really do that, right, but we don't really need to do this because I see one huge opportunity, which is so we have all these different capabilities with AI. We have an automatic background removal, you can factorize using AI, but then you can have also like generative AI, so you can create text or you can create images, right, mary.
Eray Basar:
But I think the interesting part comes when you mix them, when you bring them together to like a sophisticated workflow that consists of different AI's sequenced in a way that it does a job Sure, mostly automatically, right? So, and this is something where we are really gearing towards like to basically have the capabilities in our SDK to easily hook in any third party API, any generative AI, any specialized AI, either into the editor itself, so you know, so you have like a button or a panel, like we make everything extendable, but also in terms of the automations that you can then basically trigger. So this is really something where we already started. Like we have a few examples already. We have a beautiful showcase page where you can explore these different things that you can build with our solution.
Eray Basar:
But I'm pretty, pretty optimistic that in the couple of next month we will show some really cool stuff. And again, it's not going to be like image, the like build this great, I don't know generative image model thing. No, we're just going to scout what's there, what's best in class. We're going to partner with a few players in the space. We're going to put things together and I'm pretty sure it will be very, very it will provide a lot of value for different stakeholders.
Gary Pageau:
Making it usable.
Eray Basar:
Yeah, accessible and usable both right, which is sort of the best thing it seems
Gary Pageau:
like that's sort of your underlying Value proposition is sort of, you know, taking these things and making them usable.
Eray Basar:
Yeah, and there's like one Key observation that we also have like there is lots of really interesting innovation research coming and you know, like on hugging face, or you know, get up, you see new projects popping up every every day but you cannot really use it. You have to be very, very, very, very techy to Start using it and then, even if you start using it, it's in a very isolated environment, right. And what we are actually doing now is when you see a new hugging face model I mean, it's not from them, but it's it's at hugging face if you see that coming, then you can basically create a plug-in in a, in a with a few kind of lines of code, and then have this in an editor environment and start using, using it productively, or you can again use it in a sequence of different things. So all depending on on what's what capability we're talking about, obviously.
Gary Pageau:
So someone wanted to learn more about all the wonderful Capabilities. You have an image like where can they go to get more information and where can people connect with you?
Eray Basar:
So we have a beautiful website it's , but we also have a showcase page. So Just search on our navigation for showcases it's it's, I think, in the product navigation part, and then you'll see a lot of different kinds of configurations of our SDK, different use cases and it's a really very visual and very hands-on Approach to basically explore technology. And then, yeah, just reach out to us. We have contact us buttons everywhere and we're super happy then to discuss, you know, the use cases and and the problems that you want to attack.
Gary Pageau:
Great. Well, this is always great to talk to you, aray, and I hope to chat again with you soon. Thank you so much.
Eray Basar:
Thank you.
Erin Manning:
Thank you for listening to the dead pixels society podcast. Read more great stories and sign up for the newsletter at www the dead pixels society com.
