The Dead Pixels Society podcast

The changing professional photography market with Zenfolio

February 19, 2021 Gary Pageau Season 2 Episode 35
The Dead Pixels Society podcast
The changing professional photography market with Zenfolio
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Show Notes Transcript

Gary Pageau of the Dead Pixels Society interviews two executives from Zenfolio: Pamela Vachon, Vice President of Customer Support and Success, and Robert Campbell, Video Content Creator and Live Broadcast Host. They discuss Zenfolio's extensive offerings that not only support photographers and help them run their business but also put them in touch with potential customers.

Zenfolio Inc., a Centre Lane Partners company, offers advanced business solutions that enable photographers to easily display, share, and sell their images. For more than a decade, Zenfolio has proudly served more than 100,000 photographers around the globe. Photobooker.com by Zenfolio is a digital marketplace that enables photographers to promote their work and book new clients. 




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Hosted and produced by Gary Pageau
Edited by Olivia Pageau
Announcer: Erin Manning

Gary Pageau  0:02  
Hello again, and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau. And today we're joined by two executives from Zenfolio, who will be sharing with us the direction of the company, the products and services and the technology that makes them a leader in the photography market. Today, we're joined by Pamela Vachon, the Vice President of customer support and success, and Robert Campbell, who is a video content creator and live broadcast host. That's a lot of titleage there, Robert and Pamela, welcome to the show.

Pamela Vachon  0:53  
Thanks for having us, Gary.

Robert Campbell  0:54  
Thank you, Gary.

Gary Pageau  0:56  
So Pamela, can you share with us more on who's in folio is and how the company is reaching a bunch of new customers?

Pamela Vachon  1:04  
Absolutely. So Zenfolio is a website provider for photographers, we provide a very complete solution, everything from having a website presence to providing online proofing to e commerce and print sales. We have recently expanded into the photographer booking marketplace with our product called photo Booker, this allows photographers are really unique opportunity to fill the gaps in their schedule, or reach new markets outside of where their typical marketing avenues might be. And it's a great way for people like you and I who might want to hire a photographer for somebody whose birthday or even events that you might not typically, you know, think about hiring a photographer to quickly and easily find someone who has been vetted and is is trusted to capture those memories.

Gary Pageau  2:03  
So Zenfolio itself, though, has been around for quite some time. It's I think it's well known for its very modern interface and classic look. And you said it provides a bunch of other services in terms of supporting photographers, this can be white labeled, right? So the photographer is it's shown as their site, it's not necessarily seen as a Zen site, depending on you know, what, what package they buy, right? So what is the model for the photographer?

Pamela Vachon  2:31  
Absolutely, so the photographer basically wants to put their presence out on the internet, and they don't necessarily need a name like Zenfolio, that means nothing to, to customers. So they don't need that tied to them. They can be completely branded their look, their logo, their domain. And then when when the customer is ordering prints, they're ordering prints from the photographer, not from the print supplier who we have, you know, made the agreement with to to supply those to the customer.

Gary Pageau  3:01  
And you've got several partners for print printing, right?

Pamela Vachon  3:04  
Yes, and we have a lot.

Gary Pageau  3:07  
And the photographer can choose which what products they offer and what they don't and that kind of thing, correct?

Pamela Vachon  3:12  
Absolutely. The photographer is in full control, they choose which products, they choose which pricing, they they control everything.

Gary Pageau  3:19  
So Robert, tell me a little bit about your role as a provider of content for your audience. Because I think that's one of the interesting things about, you know, Modern Marketing these days is the way companies have had to take on that role as being an information source for their customers, in addition to a product or service provider. Sure,

Robert Campbell  3:41  
so what I do with the company is I host live streams, and I create video content for our users and just for photographers, in general, really, what I try to do is keep my pulse on what's going on in the photography industry, whether it's wedding season, senior season, something like that, and then I'm making sure that I focus my content to contribute to whatever's going on in the industry at that time. But as it specifically relates to Zenfolio. Whenever we create new products, or new features, or we add enhancements, I'm making sure that we have video content to kind of show our users how to use these new features. A lot of times to Zenfolio has features that can be used in several different ways. And so I have to make sure I create content from different angles depending on the genre of photography that that particular user might be doing. So, in short, that's, that's what I do is I get to just talk to photographers help them use our services and our features and show them how to do it in several different ways.

Gary Pageau  4:38  
And so is your background photography.

Robert Campbell  4:41  
Yeah, about 99% of us, I'd say at Zenfolio are actually photographers, right I got started in photography shortly after I was out of the military and went to school for graphic design and ended up in Zenfolio and get to hang out and talk to a photographer friends all day long. It's the best job ever.

Gary Pageau  4:57  
Great. So It sounds to me like mentorship and ongoing customer service are extremely crucial for photographers. There's a lot of people coming into the marketplace, you know, there has been for several years, you know, you go to a W PPI or an imaging USA, and you'll see a lot of new photographers who are taking this on. So it's an ongoing, it's a never ending job, I guess I should say. Right, Robert?

Robert Campbell  5:25  
Absolutely. Absolutely. One of the things that's amazing about Zenfolio is that we kind of have users that are on both ends of that spectrum, right? We have photographers who have been in the business for years and years and have a wealth of knowledge to share and who are willing to share it. And then we have new photographers coming in. And so part of what I do is try to help bring those two people together, bringing photographers on live streams that help them share their knowledge with new photographers coming in. So absolutely, mentorship is a big thing that we do as well.

Gary Pageau  5:55  
And and how are you using that feedback mechanism to enhance the Zenfolio platform, because a lot of times I see with companies, you know, though, they'll have these ongoing, they'll have these communities. And then you see in other spaces that they're not really using this feedback to enhance their product.

Pamela Vachon  6:14  
I would say that, whether it's metrics from data that we've collected, or actual anecdotal conversations that we've had, this is brought up in every single meeting or decision that we make as a company. We all talk about the, you know, kind of the journey that photographers Go on, I also kind of I had a journey that was similar to a lot of our customers, started out in biotech and had a photography hobby, and then started doing it part time. And that turned into something that became full time. And so when, and my story is very similar to pretty much everybody on the support team. So when we're talking to photographers, we understand that journey, and we can relate to them at all stages. And we make sure that we take that feedback. And you know, when we're talking about developing a new product, we'd say, Well, how is somebody who's just starting out and wanting to break into the market going to use this? But how does that translate to multi photographer studio? How are they going to use this feature? And how can we make it so that adaptable to people at all ends of the spectrum?

Gary Pageau  7:24  
That is one of the interesting thing that's kind of happened over the last, I don't know, 15 years due to digital photography, you know, DSLR, specifically, is the idea that almost anybody can be a professional photographer. Now, that's also created to challenges because almost anybody can be a professional photographer, right? Just because you have a DSLR doesn't necessarily make you a professional. And it does, you know, create some challenges in the marketplace, do you with photo book or was that built from feedback from your audience saying, you know, we need some sort of credible system to differentiate ourselves from you know, someone who may not who may not be as professional as they claim?

Pamela Vachon  8:14  
It was, I think it was also in response to seeing people who wanted to break into the market and it's really difficult to and so we give people at both ends of the spectrum, the opportunity, I think, what we see it for the the aspiring and the new Pro, is it is a way to break into the market and and be seen side by side, consumers can make the decision, they can see the images, they can, you know, look at the reviews and understand who that photographer is. And then for the pros, it gives them a chance to kind of fill in those gaps and you know, take a couple of extra sessions that they might not have gotten and would have just been, you know, idle time in their schedule,

Gary Pageau  8:58  
especially now with you know, in COVID times you got a lot of photographers who maybe were in sports and event obviously wedding photographers, other people were taking social events, you know, had their events decimated right so they had to find new things. I mean, I just saw an article today I forgot which site It was about. You know how to do product photography as a photographer they not some you're really passionate about doing but hey, this is this is something I can do.

Pamela Vachon  9:27  
And there became a demand for it as more restaurants are wanting to do online ordering and you know you were getting a lot of activity that was bringing we saw within photo book are bringing that need for product photography, up real estate also, real estate market, you generally can't get into a house because of COVID restrictions and the photos and all the imaging is even more important than it was 12 or 14 months ago.

Gary Pageau  9:57  
Are you seeing among The Zenfolio or photo Booker clientele, people getting into other types of photography or even videography, like drones or things like that.

Pamela Vachon  10:13  
I would say we are Robert, I don't know if you've personally had photographers on on the simply alive that have just discussed drones,

Robert Campbell  10:23  
not drones, but I mean, I would say you're dealing with, you know, with COVID. Specifically, we've seen a lot of photographers adapt their business. And you know, what's interesting to me is talking about volume photography, I just did a high volume roundtable discussion with some big school and sports photographers. And, and one of them actually said something really interesting. She said that her cells were hired during this than they've ever been, because of how important the photos are to the parents. So when it comes to adapting, I mean, definitely, we're seeing our photographers adapt, you know, starting to go into drone photography, real estate, and and all of that. I have not had any specific discussions on like, transforming into just doing drone stuff. No.

Gary Pageau  11:04  
Well, I would see if I can see where a photographer would possibly add that to their portfolio or talent pool, I guess is the way I would say, because, like you said, you may not if you're doing real estate photography, you know, you and you start universe, hey, I need to get different shots of the house. And maybe I you know, I'm restricted on where I can go even, right. So I mean, I just think as a technology platform, it is one of the things where I see, yeah, there's sort of been a, there's a, there's a drone space, and then there's a traditional digital space, I think those are going to start overlapping pretty heavily. Also, you know, some of the 360 photography, I think is going to be also important in that space.

Pamela Vachon  11:42  
And video, I think you're seeing even portrait photographers are incorporating snippets of video in with the product that they're offering, it might be a unique way to kind of capture the way the family moves in or interacts with each other during that portrait session. And that becomes part of the package of memories that the photographer is delivering to that family.

Gary Pageau  12:02  
So let's say I'm a new photographer, and I realized I need a, I need a some sort of online presence that you know, the Facebook page ain't cut, right, and maybe I've got a hot Insta, but you know, that's not really the place I need to do business. So kind of what's the customer journey from, you know, the onboarding process, and how you and how you make the customer aware of how they can best use the platform, rather than just throwing in, hey, throw up some pictures and have a gallery.

Pamela Vachon  12:36  
Right, I think that we really like to use education and and and do that through various touch points. So when you're in the product there, there may be guides or pop ups that come up that say, Hey, you know, would you like to learn more about how to upload and present your gallery? Or would you like to learn more about setting up for selling and e commerce. When customers join Zenfolio they then have access to a huge wealth of blog content, online video content that's not just related specifically to Zenfolio, and how to use in folio, but related to having a photography business, how to start it, ways to interact with clients so that you get that repeat customer. And basically just setting them up for success to use their website as a tool to make the entire business successful.

Gary Pageau  13:32  
I've been in the photography business for longer than I like to admit. And one of the things I very often hear from people in the business side, like you know, the camera folks in the lab folks is one of the things photographers struggle with is sales and marketing, like universal down the road, that's not why they got in to be a photographer is to do invoices and sales calls, and that sort of thing. But clearly, that's what it takes to be successful. And you do provide some resources for that.

Pamela Vachon  14:06  
Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Robert,

Robert Campbell  14:08  
that's one of the things I think, you know, as creatives we want to get into the creative part, but when it comes to the business side of things, like you said sales and marketing is, is that when people talk about going to school for photography, I often hear people say go to school for business, go to school for marketing, things like that. I wish something that would have been something that I would have listened to. But absolutely, we provide resources. We have all kinds of white papers. But that is also something that I do a lot of interviewing with, with photographers and providing videos, we did one, Laura Greer, she's an adventure travel photographer who has just exploded, and we did a whole interview on her just using her Instagram and marketing and how to market and so it's we really try to find people who are doing that part of the business really well. Get them to do an interview, share some of that knowledge and then get our photography that knowledge into our photographers hands.

Gary Pageau  14:56  
I'm just curious, how do you vet those people in terms Of how successful they really are. Because, you know, unfortunately, there is sort of the speaker circuit where there are photographers who, you know, they speak at all the conference, I'm not going to name names, but I think we all know who they are who, you know, they seem to be doing a lot of speaking, not a lot of shooting. Right. So, hi, I'm just curious as a as a content provider, how do you vet those folks?

Robert Campbell  15:28  
So a lot of them are people that we actually know.

Gary Pageau  15:32  
So you're seeing their volume through the platform, right? So you're like, all right, it's doing well.

Robert Campbell  15:36  
Right. So that's, we definitely look at the platform, we have things that we can look at and see like, if this person is doing really well, in this, maybe they'd be good to bring on an interview. For instance, we're about to do an interview on using bootmii, which is a booking feature that is in folio has, right and so to find who you're going to interview for that we actually pulled a report to see who is not only doing a lot of bookings through it. But we also looked at, you know how much they were making, how much they were making, per booking. So we're actually pulling in people who are doing really well. And then before we have them on, I'll have several meetings with them and talk to them and look at their work and things like that. So it's not just a Hey, you come here, and let's talk about this kind of thing. It's, we definitely bet that people that we interview,

Gary Pageau  16:16  
so what's the difference between photo Booker and book me other than the word book is in the title.

Pamela Vachon  16:22  
So they, in my mind, they're complements to each other, book me is a tool that exists on your website, and it's just for you, it's for your known clients, to have an easy way to, to book a photoshoot with you. photo, Booker is a way for you to reach out to the people you don't know and expand your reach. So we're doing the keyword marketing and all the SEO for you to kind of give you two avenues to pull that in, the really cool thing is, they both integrate with Google Calendar. So you're seamlessly filling in your calendar from both of those sources without having to manage conflicts of of time. And an availability.

Gary Pageau  17:03  
As I mentioned, time management for photographers is always going to be a challenge, you know, filling the calendar, but also, you know, if you have the book, book, me calendar over here, and a photo book or calendar, and those things are coming in the same place, you could have some serious conflicts there.

Pamela Vachon  17:18  
Right, and we we build into the product, their ability to set buffers and give them time to move from shoot to shoot, and that sort of thing to kind of, kind of take away the manual labor of a lot of the stuff that photographers have to do. Even things like you were talking about marketing, email marketing, we're building that in so that a photographer can upload a shoot kind of set a schedule, and those emails are going to go out to their clients automatically, with promotions and, you know, reminders that you it's, you know, time to order from your gallery, it's time to view so that they're not having to manually input that constantly.

Gary Pageau  18:00  
Can they input their own, let's say they go to a bridal Expo and they've, you know, gotten some names, they can easily import that into their email database as well. Yes, yeah. So it's not just online stuff they can do. So it's or like their own version of constant contact or, or something like that, right.

Pamela Vachon  18:16  
But it's with a they can, they can, they can pull in their contacts, and they can then schedule emails to go out, they can schedule them to go out to a portion of the contacts or the entire contact base.

Gary Pageau  18:29  
So in terms of services that your customers or photographers are offering, what are you seeing happening in the in the print space versus the download only space? I've we've been hearing things in the industry, we're actually printing has actually been doing fairly well because of coat not because of COVID directly, but I think we're there's been an emphasis, you know, gosh, I want to see pictures in my home. I want to see, I want to take this these great wedding pictures. And now I have time finally to do something with them. Are you seeing anything changes there in terms of what people are outputting and they will maybe the the types of output they're getting?

Pamela Vachon  19:19  
We are, you know, digital has been making inroads in the last years. And you know, we we've seen this just like everyone else in the industry. COVID has really placed a new importance on family and on the tangible product that you can feel and hang in your home. And we did see many of our photographers having a really good holiday season just from ordering photos. The other interesting thing that some of our photographers did adapt to COVID is they open up their archives. They have families that they've been taking portraits of, you know, since you know, they did engagement, they did wedding and they've done the newborn shots. They opened up those archives and reminded their clients that those images were there and waiting to be printed. And it gave people something to something positive to look at and reminisce about when they were missing their family.

Robert Campbell  20:14  
Yeah, same thing with, with the volume, the volume photographers as well, a lot of sports and school photographers were going back and you know, not able to do shoots in certain places, but they were emailing parents that they had their information, say, hey, just so you know, you know, we still have last year's and the previous year school photos available if you didn't get a chance to order. So it was really nice to be able to go back and do that.

Gary Pageau  20:35  
Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely hearing those stories of specially with, you know, Christmas ornaments and those kind of output options where you could take that school photo and maybe repurpose it away from the traditional last year school photo of the eight by 10 type child, hey, we can do something new with that. So what are their industry trends do you think are changing the market? Is it is it technology? Is it demographics? Is it customer behavior, what's really driving what's happening with photography right now?

Pamela Vachon  21:13  
I'd say there's many things driving changes in photography. One thing that we've seen with photo Booker is a lot of clients have a demand for immediacy, we've become this you know, it, you can call, you can call a car, you can call a meal, and it can arrive on your doorstep really quickly. And a lot of consumers are are mirroring this behavior in booking a photographer, they might be like, hey, it's Thursday. And I'd really like to have a photographer at the baby shower that's being hosted on Saturday. And they are enjoying being able to, to book a photographer on on kind of short notice and not make it be a big process. People want to be able to see these images on their devices, they want to be able to access them from the cloud photographers are on the go and need to be able to manage certain aspects of their business from their mobile devices. And I would say also, like, like I said, before, video and drone, you know, different different ways of capturing images are becoming part of the mainstream, you know, it might not be something that, you know, it used to be very few people had had drones and had access to that. But you see drone shots and a lot of weddings. Now it's used in most real estate, it's finding its way into a lot of different genres.

Gary Pageau  22:34  
This idea of that you brought up the photography as a service is something that we've been hearing a lot in the last few years, there's a couple of companies that we know that kind of specialize in that where they don't even worry about the output side of it. Right? They, they're just providing the photography service, like you said, and now and this and that people I'm thinking of it's in the sports shooting, right, they, but you can also like you said, Do it forever, some everything else, because despite the fact it's funny, you should say because despite the fact that everyone has an incredible high resolution image capture device that's connected to the internet and has great software and great optics, people still want the service of not having to worry about bringing out their camera and having someone else come and do the work for them. I think that's one of the things people have been surprised at that there's still a demand for someone to come and provide the service.

Pamela Vachon  23:28  
I think so I mean, there's a limit to what a selfie can capture. And so if you want to be part of the part of the celebration or part of the event, it's really liberating to be able to hire somebody in and have them capture the emotion you include it. I mean, you know, we just actually held a virtual baby shower for a co worker who's having a baby soon. And one of the key pieces of advice that we passed around was get in the photos. And that's a really important thing. You know, if you're the person taking the photos, you're you're basically left out of those memories in a really important way.

Gary Pageau  24:03  
Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you're a person of a certain age, perhaps Gen X or older, you're you're gonna find out, you know, your parents weren't in the pictures.

Pamela Vachon  24:13  
Right. Exactly.

Gary Pageau  24:14  
Yeah. And I think to some extent in sort of the selfie obsessed world, that that will happen in certain events, right. There are other players in the market, how are you differentiating yourselves from them?

Pamela Vachon  24:36  
I have to say and I get asked this question a lot, whether it's hiring it you know, hiring a new employee or whatever, you know, what sets employee apart and I have to say without a doubt, and it is our support, our support team are consistent. We're mostly photographers, we understand photographers we understand we're, we're in their shoes when when the photographer calls up and is talking about abroad being upset about, you know, a photo being bent in the mail, we feel their pain, like we get it. And we really are invested in their success. We, we want photographers to be successful, we want to continue this industry and make it stronger. And it's part of everything we do. Like I said, our customer feedback, I will quote customers in, you know, meetings and reports and everything and saying this, you know, I might be talking about photographer XYZ. And they told Robert the other day that what's really important to them, is this aspect of our feature, being able to, you know, be customized to their needs. And our our company here is that, so we make sure that we place the customer in the center of everything that we do.

Gary Pageau  25:56  
The headquarters of the company are in Menlo Park, California, and you folks are scattered around the country, but you're also available in other countries around the world. Can you talk about that expansion a little bit, and how that has changed, maybe some of how the company operates if you're in different countries.

Pamela Vachon  26:17  
Sure, we are located globally, as far as our product, we have a really strong presence in the UK and Europe and Australia, we have lots of photographers, in those areas who use in folio. As we roll out new products, for instance, our book, The product is currently available in the US. And we're making localization plans for later in 2021. So we're rolling features out there available in the US. But there's all kinds of things to think about when rolling a product out somewhere else. It's not sales tax in Europe, it's going to be that and making sure that we have everything set up so that those photographers can can use the product effectively in their location.

Gary Pageau  27:00  
Plus, you have different now you have different currencies in different countries. Now with Brexit, you've got now going back to the pond and everything else, there's a lot of excitement there.

Pamela Vachon  27:09  
Yeah, it keeps us hopping.

Gary Pageau  27:12  
So our offering is comparable, across the planet. I mean, I'm sure in terms of the the digital side it is but I'm sure you have some some physical products that may or may not be available in certain countries, because of, you know, maybe the labs don't make them or something like that.

Pamela Vachon  27:30  
Right, we have print labs that we work with in the different locales. So we have print labs in Australia and print labs in Europe and some ship worldwide. So you've got their, you know, their products worldwide, some of our US print labs might not be able to ship worldwide. So those products are only available in the US and Canada, we really try to get a good complement of products, so that photographers whether they're selling to, you know, people in Australia or in the US, they have a nice product offering.

Gary Pageau  28:02  
So what are some of the new products and services that you think are going to be launched during the current year, hoping that of course, you know, things continue to improve as we hope they do over the network. 2021?

Pamela Vachon  28:14  
Sure, so one of the big things that we're working on is an update to Zenfolio, as you had said, Zenfolio has been around for a while. And we have been building a totally new platform. So it's modern, it's mobile centric. And, you know, the, the more modern layouts and interface for both the photographers and the clients, we just launched the the very first part of it, which is called portfolio really geared towards the hobbyist and aspiring photographer. And as we start building out, things like e commerce and some of the more advanced features that professionals need, we'll continue to launch those throughout the course of 2021. Additionally, we'll be rolling out into other countries. So when you think about being available in the UK, whether it's the new platform, or book me, those will start to be available in other countries throughout 2021.

Gary Pageau  29:11  
So let's say I've been on Zenfolio for five or six years, will my galleries and everything transitioned over to the new platform seamlessly? What will that would adopt new layouts, how's that gonna? How is that going to work?

Pamela Vachon  29:27  
So we're really working on figuring out what that migration is going to look like for photographers, we want to make sure first that we have the full complement of features that the existing photographers enjoy on Zenfolio and that they're available on the new platform. We're not going to force anybody into the new platform and leave them abandoned without really critical features that they have been depending on. Once that happens. We need to make sure that their images become available. And the thing is the website there. It's really Easy to build, but it's going to have to be, they're going to have that chance to take advantage of the fresh new look. Because the actual layout is not going to transition one to the other, it's going to, to kind of migrate over. And the beautiful thing is, they're modern, they're fresh, they're easy to, to customize and make something really beautiful.

Gary Pageau  30:22  
Well, I mean, I always thought your layouts are pretty easy on the eyes as a war, I mean, as thing. So kudos to you for even taking that on. Because I think that's, that's a, it's a big challenge. I think a lot of people don't understand what the work is behind the hood, this is not just dragging and dropping pictures from one folder to another and calling it a new layout.

Pamela Vachon  30:43  
Right? It's a touch more complex than that, and I'm probably not the most, you know, qualified to speak to that, because I generally don't understand our engineers when they try to explain some of that to me. But, you know, basically, when you think about when Zenfolio was founded, the mobile phone played a totally different role in our lives, then. And it's, you know, people do more and more shopping on on their mobile devices. And we really needed to make sure that the platform that we move into the future with make sure that people can can work on on their mobile device, both the client and the photographer.

Gary Pageau  31:20  
Is this something that your customers are saying that you should do? Or is it just so obvious, you have to do this, that you're doing it? I mean, I mean, I can't imagine you're probably getting a lot of photographer saying, you know, gosh, you really need to be this.

Pamela Vachon  31:37  
I think we I think was probably a combination of both, I mean, all of us use our mobile devices to shop. And, you know, I have aging parents who don't own a laptop, but they do have mobile devices. And so if I'm going to send them a gallery of images, and they want to place an order, they're going to be doing it from their mobile device, it might be an iPad, it might be, you know, a smartphone, but they need to have a really good experience. And starting this, this new platform was was critical, because you need to have that modern infrastructure to really be able to create a full complement of features that are going to be available on desktop and mobile alike.

Gary Pageau  32:21  
So how long will there be, like you said, You're not forcing people into the new platform, but at some point, they're gonna have to make a choice. How long do you think that transition is going to be?

Pamela Vachon  32:32  
It's going to be many months, you know, it's going to be through the end of the year before we have the full complement of features available on this new platform. And during that time, we want to give our photographers the chance to try it out. We've had photographers actually already trying it out giving feedback, you know, and we want to hear that so that we can prepare exactly what needs to be done to get them moved from one to the other in a way that doesn't disrupt their business. There's a reason why trade shows happen in the January February timeframe, because that's when photographers can take a breath and, and go and do that. So we don't want to tell somebody right in the middle of their high season that they need to to migrate. We want to give them that time and the tools to do that.

Gary Pageau  33:18  
I hope we have tradeshows again soon in real life. And

Robert Campbell  33:24  
yeah, yes.

Gary Pageau  33:26  
So Robert, what are you hearing? Are you involved in this update process at all? are you what are you hearing about it?

Robert Campbell  33:32  
Yeah, so I mean, the company as a whole is really our inner department communication is really great, which is one of the things that's amazing when we talk about, you know, creating new features, creating a new platform. It's not like it's a one sided thing. It's everybody getting together and talking about how to approach it best. So there's definitely lots of great things coming. And there's been lots of meetings and lots of the customer support Customer Success side providing feedback and requests and things that photographers are talking about. So product development. And so I'm really excited about what's what's coming up and where and where we're headed.

Gary Pageau  34:07  
Great. So assuming that there are no trade shows to attend anytime real soon, where can people go to get more information about Zenfolio?

Robert Campbell  34:20  
You guys can come on YouTube every Thursday at 11am Pacific or 2pm. Eastern time, just go to YouTube, do a search for Zenfolio. We'll be live streaming there. And you can get a lot of information there. But also, we have some landing pages, I believe as well, right Pam that they can go to and check out.

Pamela Vachon  34:38  
So you can go to Zenfolio.com and find out more about our products and our services. And we're also available on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. And as Robert said, Oh, club posts.

Gary Pageau  34:55  
Yes. The new exciting platform. Yeah. Well, great. Well thank you so much for joining me today and best wishes for a great 2021. Thank you. Thank you

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