Driving Business Growth with Expert PPC Strategies from Zaid Ammari

Unlock the potential of your small business with expert insights from Zaid Ammari, founder of PPC Masterminds, as we dissect the world of Pay-Per-Click (PPC) advertising. Discover how to effectively leverage Google Ads, Bing Ads, Amazon Ads, YouTube Ads, and Pinterest Ads to target local customers and drive foot traffic to your brick-and-mortar store. Ammari helps navigate the complex landscape of PPC channels, providing invaluable advice on selecting the right platforms and highlighting the benefits of working with specialized PPC agencies.

Maximize your advertising ROI by mastering keyword strategies, competitor analysis, and optimal cost-per-click calculations. Learn how to avoid the pitfalls of overpaying for clicks and understand the importance of monitoring sales statistics. Ammari offers actionable tips for focusing on high-return products and enhancing your website's user experience to improve conversion rates, especially in competitive markets.

Enhance your online marketing efforts with strategies to streamline the customer journey and boost lead generation. From the power of social proof and fast-loading websites to the effectiveness of video marketing and targeted landing pages, Ammari provides a roadmap for increasing conversions. Explore the benefits of retargeting on platforms like Facebook, YouTube, and Instagram, and understand how repeated exposure can build trust and drive sales.

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Chapters

• 0:02 Strategies for Pay-Per-Click Advertising
• 10:57 [Ad] Exploring Workplace Mental Health with Dr. Bill Howatt
• 11:47 (Cont.) Strategies for Pay-Per-Click Advertising
• 11:49 Maximizing Paid Ad ROI on Amazon
• 16:58 Optimizing Online Marketing for Conversions
• 21:59 Effective Lead Generation and Retargeting Strategies

Transcript

Erin Manning: 0:02

Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast, the photo imaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau. The Dead Pixels Society podcast is brought to you by Mediaclip, Advertek Printing and Independent Photo Imagers.

Gary Pageau: 0:18

Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau. Today we're joined by Zaid Ammari, who's the founder of PPC Masterminds, and he's coming to us from Redondo Beach, California. Hi, Zaid, how are you today?

Zaid Ammari: 0:32

Hey Gary, Thanks for having me. I'm doing great.

Gary Pageau: 0:34

PPC Masterminds is not something that I think most of my audience is familiar with, but they are certainly familiar with PPC, which is obviously pay-per-click. So can you talk about your company a little bit and what you mean by pay-per-click, because sometimes people have different definitions of that?

Zaid Ammari: 0:51

Yeah, absolutely so. What we mean by pay-per-click is any marketing channel that requires you to pay them for ads. Usually, most of them are pay-per-click, so you have to pay-per-click. Most of them are paid per click, so you have to pay per click. Some of them is pay per view, like YouTube. Others is pay per impression for every thousand times someone views your ad, so it's mostly just paid marketing channels.

Gary Pageau: 1:17

And which ones do you specialize in for your company?

Zaid Ammari: 1:20

We specialize in Google ads, bing ads, amazon ads, youtube ads, pinterest ads pretty much most of the platforms we have experience with. The most popular ones are obviously Google ads, facebook ads and Bing ads. Those are the top three. Pinterest is actually great. It's underused but gets a lot of sales for e-commerce companies specifically.

Gary Pageau: 1:47

I want to talk about that kind of channels because sometimes people really, when they're looking at marketing, they kind of either get overwhelmed by the number of choices that are out there right, because there's Instagram ads, there's Facebook ads all these platforms are out there and they may focus, pick one or two that they like, but they may not be the most effective. So let's say, for example, you're running a small brick and mortar store of some sort and you have an online business of some sort. You know what would be some of your objectives that you would recommend to somebody when they're looking at a paperclip campaign kind of the results they should be looking for paperclip campaign, kind of the results they should be looking for.

Zaid Ammari: 2:30

Yeah, absolutely so. Brick and mortar you would want people to come into your store, right? So you would probably want to do ads on. Google maps. So local ads. You could target them to a specific radius around your business. You could, for, for example, target people on their phones on a specific radius, so if someone's searching for buying a camera or looking for a camera specialist or whatever their brick and mortar is.

Zaid Ammari: 2:55

You could, you know, bid on those keywords for a specific radius around your store and you could tell google okay, I want people on their phones because most probably people are going to be walking around. Or if you live in a high density area, then you could also do desktop and mobile. So since you're paying for ads, you can control who sees your ads and what they do after they click on the ad. The thing with brick and mortars is it's hard to track the click. If someone clicks and you know is trying to visit your store with the sale, so if they come into your store and they buy something, um, it's it's hard to track it per per click, right but you can't do it but you could do it on a monthly basis.

Zaid Ammari: 3:41

Like you know, we started marketing in february. Did we see an increase in foot traffic? Did that result in an increase in?

Gary Pageau: 3:48

sales Right Cause I think that you've touched on an interesting point, because there's a lot of marketing right now that's metrics driven right. You need to do this and you're going to see X and you're going to see this amount of increase in in traffic. You know, like you said, through an online environment specifically, but in the case of a geographic app or something like that, you may not actually know where that traffic is coming from when the transaction happens.

Zaid Ammari: 4:16

Right, that is one of the downsides to that. But, like the big chains, they have a way to do that. They actually, when you walk into a big chain store, they have these bluetooth things in the wall that will actually you know they can they can tell if you clicked on their ad or not before walking in. But that's not something like small businesses or you know need to do, or even afford to do it, because it's just like too, too crazy, you know.

Gary Pageau: 4:45

Too much detail.

Zaid Ammari: 4:49

Yeah, that's yeah for sure. So the the other way to do it is you can just track. You know when. When did you start spending on ads and did that actually result in an increase in foot traffic, and did that foot traffic actually get you more sales? Right, because you don't just want people walking in, you want people to buy.

Zaid Ammari: 5:05

So, you could do it over like a three month period and see what happens, because one month is too quick and you might, you know, end up turning off your ads when they're actually didn't even kick in yet.

Gary Pageau: 5:18

So one of the things I wanted to touch base with you on, because you know a lot of my audience are small business owners, are wearing a lot of hats. They're, you know, running the printer, doing the marketing, doing HR, you know, and all those kind of activities, and so they might be thinking, hey, this is something I can kind of do on myself on my own right. So what would be reasons why a small business owner would want to engage with an outside agency for PPC marketing versus, let's say, delegating it to their social media manager or something like that?

Zaid Ammari: 5:53

Good question. I would say first of all, it's totally fine if you're doing everything for your business. That's what business owners do, right yeah?

Zaid Ammari: 6:03

I mean yeah you have to juggle many hats. Uh, the reasons why someone would want to hire a an agency would be if they just simply don't have the time to manage all that stuff. So time management uh, they don't have the experience or the expertise in running paid ads, so hiring an agency will get them better results. So, for example, if they're spending you know $5,000 a month, they're probably going to get a return of you know, for every dollar. They might get $5 back. So they're going to get a return of like $20,000,. For example, If they're running it themselves, they're going to be spending a lot of time and effort and energy learning and they might not get the same results.

Zaid Ammari: 6:49

So paying for someone might. It's kind of like a shortcut to get more sales in a shorter amount of time.

Gary Pageau: 6:58

Now, when I talk to people kind of along those lines, you know, when they talk about, like search engine optimization and things like that and they're always talking about how Google is changing the algorithm and you have, and they have to keep up on that kind of stuff Do they do something similar for the ad platform? Do? You have is there a lot of changes there. You need to keep up on.

Zaid Ammari: 7:16

They do a lot of changes on the on the ad platform. Yes, they launch like new campaign types. So, for example, there's like a new campaign type called the Performance Max, which is like a black hole. To be honest with you, it's kind of like sucking people's Google is always. You know, I always tell my clients like Google ads is how Google makes money. They're not in it for you, they're in it for themselves. So you have to be careful with what you do on there. So you have to be careful with what you do on there and if you trust what their representatives tell you, cause I see a lot of people saying like, oh, my rep told me to increase my budget. Well, I mean, obviously you know what I mean Like they're trying to make money so you have to be careful.

Zaid Ammari: 7:56

but yes, they do updates, not as intense as the search engines and they do announce them more frequently than the search engines because you know SEO. And they do announce them more frequently than the search engines because you know SEO. They do some updates and they just want to let you know, right. And if they do let you know, it's like super vague, right, with Google ads that we're like okay, we're launching this, we're changing this on this date, this is what's going to happen.

Zaid Ammari: 8:19

The most intense changes with Google ads, which sometimes they don't announce, is like changes with how they show your ads for specific keyword match types. So back in the day, you could type in like, let's say, you just want to bid on an exact match keyword, which means that exact keyword needs to be typed into Google, so, for example, a landing pad for drone. You know what I mean. Yeah, if you bid on that keyword, your ad is only going to show up for that specific keyword. Nowadays, they actually show it to other keywords that they think are related to that exact keyword. So it's not really exact match anymore. Right, okay, so they do. Yes, so they do change a lot of things and you have to be careful, but usually they do announce it.

Gary Pageau: 9:10

But I guess that's the point I was trying to make. Is you know, if you're, if you're running your business, trying to keep up and all this in your business now you have to learn those skills as well.

Gary Pageau: 9:18

Yes, which may be great, may be worthwhile, but may not be the best use of your time. Outside of Google. You had mentioned other platforms, right? Pinterest you said was a hot platform. Some of my audience, you know, actually do quite a bit on Etsy, right, they do a lot with, you know, craft type things. Is there things they can do to drive traffic to their Etsy as well?

Zaid Ammari: 9:38

I mean, I personally wouldn't.

Zaid Ammari: 9:41

If they have an Etsy store and it's super successful, I would say they should try and open up their own store and send traffic to their own store, because then they would own the traffic that's going there, instead of if you pay for traffic and send it to Etsy, you're kind of helping Etsy.

Zaid Ammari: 9:57

Also, you're not helping yourself and they might just wander off somewhere else. So if you are driving traffic, I think etsy has, uh, paid things that you can do within their platform. Yeah, but but I wouldn't recommend, like, sending google ads to etsy specifically, because you're kind of sending it to like a third party. Right, you know, at that point, if you have money to spend on on ads, just make your own website sending it, send it to your own website. That way you could retarget those people. Like, if they come to your website and they don't convert, you can just keep following them around with the same product they didn't buy or the service you know so another platform that is very popular with my audience are especially the hard goods retailers that they have an amazon store.

Gary Pageau: 10:43

What are some of the things you should keep in mind if you're going to be doing some advertising within the Amazon platform, Because, again, that's super competitive right and there's very similar products which you may not even have exclusive rights to right, so you're competing against other people.

Zaid Ammari: 11:39

That's a great question. The thing with Amazon you have to keep track of what your competitors are doing and what your stats are doing. So I notice a lot on Amazon. For example, the most basic things sometimes people forget, like the title the title needs to have the keywords in it know what I mean um for paid specifically, that that helps.

Zaid Ammari: 12:05

Um, obviously, more reviews, uh the better. More keywords in the reviews, right, um the better, but uh, mostly for for amazon paid. You just have to figure out what products are the ones that are getting you the most return on investment and push those first right, and then the other ones, the other products that you have that are not getting too many sales you don't want to bid too high on them and just try to figure out, like, why you're not getting sales on those versus the ones that you are getting sales on. It could be something simple like the ones that are making you the most money are the most popular ones, or they have the most reviews, or something like that. So you just have to kind of figure out what or why that's happening.

Gary Pageau: 12:49

So you just brought up an interesting phrase which was paying too much. That is sort of a very subjective thing, because some people it's all you know too much is one number and other people too much is different number. What are, what are some of the things people can do to think about what is too much in terms of you know a when they're bidding on a keyword or something like that Is it? Is it because you need to know down the line you're going to make more over time, or is it a one-time transaction type of decision?

Zaid Ammari: 13:25

That's a great question. So I have something called a conversion calculator. Okay, so for paid ads, since you know how much you're going to be paying per click, you could kind of walk back with the formula and figure out okay, how much should I be paying per click to actually make money, right? So it's different for e-commerce versus a lead generation. Sure, for for e-commerce, you know, for example, your margin is, let's say, 40, right? So let's say you're making 150 dollars on a sale, that's your, that's your profit, right, right, after expenses. And I'm just like it easy, you're just throwing it out there Right, yeah, exactly.

Zaid Ammari: 14:04

Yeah, and let's say you're paying. Let's say you're paying a dollar a click, which usually on Google ads is less than that for shopping, right? But if you do the math and you look at, okay, what's my conversion rate, which is basically how many people are buying, so how many people are coming to my website and how many of those are buying, so let's just say that's like one percent, you could do the math and figure out okay, well, uh, this is how much I should be paying to get a sale, for the, for the, for lead generation. You just have to add one more calculation, which is the lead to sale, right? So if you're getting a lead, for example, for 20 bucks, but then only 1% are converting, so you have to add that to the formula and then you'll figure okay, well, if I'm paying this much per click, is it worth it for me to you know, like, how much is it worth it for me to pay per click if I'm actually going to make money right from the sale?

Gary Pageau: 15:03

so yeah I.

Zaid Ammari: 15:04

I like you have to do some math before you start, uh, spending money, because you could kind of figure out where your pain points are and adjust.

Gary Pageau: 15:12

Yeah, that makes sense because I mean, like I said, everyone's going to have different right and they're going to have different profit margins, right? So when you're selling a hard good, you're selling a camera body, for example, your margin there is probably near zero, right yeah yeah whereas

Gary Pageau: 15:25

if you're you know printing, like you said. Uh, you know making a photo book or something. There your margin is much, much higher, you know, and now you're in the 40 percent range or something like you said. Now, I'm not many people are selling photo books for 150 bucks, but I mean that'd be great if they were, but anyway. So is that a tool you have on your site, the calculator? Is this something you provide to clients, or how do people access that?

Zaid Ammari: 15:49

Oh, it's just the Excel sheet formula that I made, but I'm happy to send you the link and anyone can copy it and use it.

Gary Pageau: 15:57

No, that's kind of a cool idea and a tool to use. So let's talk a little bit about lead generation, because that is a challenge for a lot of people who are in history, because we're in a strange environment in the sense that, on the output side right, if you're trying to convince people to print pictures, everyone wants to print pictures, but it's super competitive. There's literally thousands of places you can get your pictures printed. So what are some of the things people ought to keep in mind when they're trying to just generate leads? They just want to get customers, they want to meet new people. What are some of the things they ought to keep in mind when they're paying for clicks, if you will?

Zaid Ammari: 16:35

When they're paying for clicks, they have to keep in mind, basically, how easy is it for someone to convert on their website? Like how many? Um? I wrote a post about this a while ago. But on, on an online marketing, you can think of a click as energy exerted. So the less clicks it takes for someone to go from point a to purchase, the less energy they spend, so the more chances they're going to buy from you.

Zaid Ammari: 17:06

Yeah, and like a social proof, reviews right, you should show the reviews on your website, on your homepage or just somewhere. Like you know, the five stars, just the yellow stars they have an effect on people. You know people want to trust you before they come in and they purchase. So the layout of your website needs to be clear like this is what we do. This is how you can do it easy to purchase. There's social proof. Like you know, you guys do a great job. I should, I should. You know why shouldn't I use you? The price point is is affordable. That's what they need to make sure is is all good before they start sending traffic to their website and obviously, make sure that it's fast enough. It's not super slow. The website is. The layout is yeah.

Gary Pageau: 17:55

That's one of the things I think is interesting, because you see some people, it's like they drive to the website but then the website says, here, download our app. So you're almost disincentivizing them to do anything right there on the website. Right, it's like come here but go to this other place actually to get it on mobile and it's. I think sometimes there are barriers created because there's so much attention on we need to acquire customers. We need to bring customers in all the time. All the time we need to bring you know, we need more bodies all the time, and then just getting them through the door isn't enough. You also have to get them through the whole process. That's right.

Zaid Ammari: 18:33

It's tricky If you're sending traffic already to your website and they're not converting. You would have to look at your analytics. You could do something called funnel visualization, which is you could set up what are the steps that people are taking to convert and then look at the drop-off whether you're dropping there. Can I make it easier for them? Is my design good? So if you are sending traffic already and you're not getting conversions, there's a reason. It could be your message, it could be your website, it could be anything. It could be a technical issue. You know, it could be a lot of things.

Gary Pageau: 19:10

You know. That's one of the things I think that, especially on the output side of the business, the printing side of the business, is there's so many products available right when you can have, you know, your photo printed on anything these days. You know, wood, glass, paper, bamboo, ceramic mugs, t-shirts, you name it, you can print on, and there's a tendency to want to, you know, throw everything at the customer. You know, when they come in, they got to see everything, right, you know they got to see all these great things we're making. But I think that almost creates a barrier to transaction because you overwhelm the user. Is there something they can do in terms of their pay per click marketing to kind of steer customers, based on what the customer might be interested in, to a specific landing page?

Zaid Ammari: 19:54

Yes. So if you're doing paid marketing, you would want to send a customer to a landing page that offers what they're exactly looking for. So if they're doing print on ceramics, print on wood, you would send them to a page with, okay, these are the different types of wood that we have, kind of thing. So you wouldn't send them to a page where, like, okay, yeah, you want wood, oh, yeah, we have also ceramics and we have a paper and we have, you know, you want to print it on the cardboard, like whatever you want. Just send them to the page based on the keyword choice that they, that they make, right, okay. So again, it goes back to my saying of like, less clicks, less energy, you're going to get a better conversion, right, the more the the less effort they take, the less effort they need to think about okay, well, no, I have to go to this other page and the easier for them to purchase so, once and now switching to the hard good side.

Gary Pageau: 20:46

Right, if someone is looking for a specific brand of camera or lens, that should be a landing page specific for that, correct yeah, that would, that.

Zaid Ammari: 20:55

You would send them to the product page, right Straight to the product page. This is our price. These are how many reviews it got. That's the description. This is what the product specs are, all that stuff you know. Add to cart. So that's usually done automatically with Google Shopping. It's easier than lead generation. I can tell you that for sure.

Gary Pageau: 21:19

Yeah, so what are some of the struggles with lead generation that you see people wrestling with? Because I see it as an ongoing issue with everyone, because everyone on the shopping side, right, they're kind of overwhelmed with marketing messages all the time. So they kind of get built, you know, have almost a armor to it. Right, the messages aren't sinking in. But you know you've mentioned some of the things that people are doing reviews, you know, testimonials, those kind of things do work. Is there anything else that people should be thinking about in terms of just getting people to their website through lead generation?

Zaid Ammari: 21:57

if you're selling something, uh, that is, I would say, like you don't want someone to click on your ad if they're not your target audience, right? So your messaging could convey that. So, for example, I usually put my pricing in my ad so that if someone, before someone, clicks on my ad because a click on lead generation ads is usually, if you're doing search ads, it's usually more expensive than e-commerce, right? So if you put the price and you put your exact service and this is what you're going to get in the ad, then if someone reads it and they're like, oh man, these guys are too expensive or you know what, this is not what I'm looking for, then they'll save you that click, so you'll end up saving money. So the messaging in the ad before they even click to your website could save you money.

Gary Pageau: 22:45

Okay, so pre-screen people before they click, because you only pay per click, right, that's what. That's why it's named yeah, yeah.

Zaid Ammari: 22:52

Yeah, another thing is retargeting. So retargeting, so retargeting is super effective for, uh, pretty much anything, because they come to your website, then they leave, then they start seeing your ads everywhere and that kind of creates trust in their mind because it's like you're you know, you're like, oh man, these guys are spending so much money. I'm seeing them on like facebook, I'm seeing them on youtube. There's a video about them. Oh, they follow me on instagram. Like these guys are trustworthy, they're spending a lot of money. Meanwhile, it's just a cookie that you're following them around. You know, showing them the same, the ad of of, uh, you know what you do and um, also the offer. So, for example, I do, uh, free audits. You know I'm not trying to sell you straight up on like yo, come buy my purchase, come buy my service right now.

Zaid Ammari: 23:41

You know, like are you a good fit? Can I actually help you? Is this something that you need, right? I'm not like forcing it down your throat, like you know what, yeah, like you need me, can't live without me. You got to buy stuff right now, you know, right, exactly. So maybe the offer on the page too, give them a sample. Or I see a lot of like if you're doing any home decor, for example, like sometimes they send you samples and you like the qualities and I'm like, okay, let me get these things like that, so you could be super creative and not force someone to buy from you right as soon as they land on your page.

Gary Pageau: 24:21

Well, a lot of people do the sign up for a newsletter thing, or you know something like that, which is again as part of that. Now you mentioned retargeting. Is that something that's not something I know a lot about? How do you do that? I mean, is that just a function in your website? You can drop a pixel on people's uh, uh, what browser that's actually a uh, a paid marketing campaign okay, so that's something you have to purchase as well?

Zaid Ammari: 24:45

yeah, okay yeah, so you'd have to pay per uh, per click okay, but that's just a technology you use, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah you could do it through Google ads. You could use a platform called AdRoll, which does Google ad network and Facebook and Instagram.

Gary Pageau: 25:03

A lot of things are really going to video these days with marketing right, the short videos and things like that. How does that impact pay per click at all, if anything?

Zaid Ammari: 25:19

at all, if anything. So YouTube is actually amazing, Honestly you could actually do retargeting on YouTube too, so, but in general, youtube is amazing because of the fact that you're not going to pay for someone seeing your video unless they actually watch more than 30 seconds.

Zaid Ammari: 25:31

So you got 30 seconds of free ad, like running for them, unless obviously they skip or you know they watch over the 30 seconds, right then you, you'll pay for it, but at that point they might be interested in your, in your service yeah, you can kind of tell your story in 20 seconds and you're all right yeah, uh, the the thing with that is I see a lot of struggle with the quality of the videos, like the messaging in the video.

Zaid Ammari: 25:57

They don't convey the point quickly enough. People use a lot of animated videos, which hopefully they'll stop doing. I think the quality of the video is key and but yeah, youtube ads is great and it's not too expensive. No one's going to click on your video, go to your website and purchase immediately like they're doing through search, but it's still. It's still really helpful and it's cheaper a little bit than making sure that you're targeting the right people and you're not setting your bids too high.

Gary Pageau: 26:23

Outside of YouTube, there's other video platforms, right, and I was just reading something today that actually still images are performing better on Instagram than reels. So I think people are trying to figure out what's working in terms of what's effective, but what you're suggesting is maybe try different things and see what works.

Zaid Ammari: 26:43

Yes, I mean images, probably work. I don't know, I didn't read the same thing you're talking about, but retargeting on Instagram, retargeting anywhere works and usually when we do retargeting, it's still images.

Gary Pageau: 27:01

But you just have to think like where's your?

Zaid Ammari: 27:02

audience at People on social media.

Gary Pageau: 27:05

usually they're distracted, they're not as invested in finding what they're looking for, as in like Google search. Yeah, because they're not necessarily in. I'm going to buy something mode, right, they're more consuming something mode.

Zaid Ammari: 27:18

Yep. So, like when they're on social, if you're retargeting them, for example, it's a different mindset than if you're promoting to them like something new that they've never seen before. That's a whole nother mindset, right? Like, if you're just promoting like stuff on Facebook ads, it's not doing remarketing. It could be very new to them so it could spark their interest, but that doesn't mean they're going to come and purchase on Google. They're actually typing in the keyword, so their intent is much higher. You know, you just have to think like where am I, where's my audience hanging out? Right, they hanging out at forums, like it might be a good idea to go and and hit up some forms, yeah reddit or something like that.

Zaid Ammari: 27:57

Especially photography forms on reddit I know are huge, so that yeah, all that yeah but yeah, advertising on reddit is a whole nother like yeah, I don't know another episode right there.

Gary Pageau: 28:11

Listen, say, listen. It was great to me. Where, where can people go for more information about your company and to get that free thing you were talking about?

Zaid Ammari: 28:19

Oh, yeah, for sure. So you can go to my website, ppcmastermindscom, and I'll be happy to do a free Google Ads account audit for you. And if you have an existing Google Ads account, then I'll send you a video of exactly what needs to be fixed in your account account. And I'll send you a video of exactly what needs to be fixed in your account For the conversion calculator. I will share the link on my LinkedIn profile and I'll send it to you too. Sure.

Gary Pageau: 28:47

And I'll link to it to your LinkedIn and we'll get that out there.

Zaid Ammari: 28:50

Sounds good.

Gary Pageau: 28:51

Awesome. Well, thank you, zaid, it was great to meet you. A lot of great information in a short time to share. I know it'll be of great interest to a lot of our folks who kind of struggle with this, whereas you know, I know I need to do it, I have to do it, I don't know how to do it and maybe they need to reach out and get some help. So, thank you so much for your time and appreciate it and hope to talk to you again.

Erin Manning: 29:18

Thank you, Gary. I appreciate it and hopefully I was helpful. Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel Society podcast. Read more great stories and sign up for the newsletter at wwwthedeadpixelssocietycom.