Candid Copyright Conversation with Sheryl Bashore and Bob Kenward

Parents can erase a watermark for five bucks, AI keeps getting better, and “just screenshot it” has become a reflex. So what do you do if you make your living in volume sports photography? Gary Pageau of The Dead Pixels Society sits down with Bob Kenward of Fluvanna Photography and Sheryl Bashore of Sheryl Z Photography, two of the most respected voices in youth sports and cheer, dance, and gymnastics photography, to get honest about what’s happening right now and what actually moves the needle.

Kenward shares what he learned after turning on SnapShield style screenshot deterrence and activity tracking inside his GotPhoto workflow, including the surprising volume of mobile screenshot attempts and why friction can push some families to finally place an order. Kenward brings the counterpoint from the premium side of the market: when the imagery is truly stunning and the commitment level is high, the buy rate and average order value can stay strong without obsessing ove

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Transcript

Erin Manning 0:00

The Dead Pixel Society Podcast is brought to you by Media clip, Advertek Printing, and Independent Photo Imagers. Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society Podcast, the photoimaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau.

Gary Pageau 0:18

Hello again, and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society Podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau . Today we're joined by oh my gosh, have we got a show for you today? We've got Bob Kenward K and Sheryl Bayshore, who are the linchpins of the, I don't know what you want to call it, the body photography sports and events summoned space, I guess. They're like the uh the Ricky and Lucy of the Bonnie Photography space.

Sheryl Bashore 0:49

I love that.

Bob Kenward 0:51

I've never been called a linchpin before.

Sheryl Bashore 0:55

Or a Lucy. I love it. That's great. Bob, that's our new thing.

Bob Kenward 0:59

Maybe so. Lucy and Ricky. I'm not dressing up.

Gary Pageau 1:08

So anyway, Bob, uh, for the people who aren't aware of what you do, well, really short, I want to get right into it. Can you go really briefly into what your business is? Sure.

Bob Kenward 1:20

Yeah, sure. Based in central Virginia, 20 years in the business, mostly the last 10, but you know, I have actually been in business for 20 years. I do volume sports photography, and I do 100% composite photography, and I do only sports. And when I say sports, it's mostly 99% stick and ball sports, what we call it. So baseball, softball, football, soccer, lacrosse, those things. And the and high schools, I do a couple of high schools and the sports associated with those. But yeah, that's me. All composite.

Gary Pageau 1:54

And Sheryl, you are the queen of dance.

Sheryl Bashore 2:00

I also do chair and gymnastics, a lot of chair and gymnastics.

Gary Pageau 2:05

So a little bit about your business, where you are.

Sheryl Bashore 2:07

I well, and I'm amazed because I'm younger than you, Bob, even if it's only a year or two, but I've been in business 35 years, which is crazy to me. But in the world of volume sports, which I started out in stick and ball and cheer probably 25 years, and then finally just kept going towards cheer dance and gymnastics. And I just the imagery just knocked my socks off and made me happy and in the world of volume, and that's kind of where I went. So I gave up all the stick and ball. I leave it for Bob and happily, and I concentrate on all of actually, I don't even want to call it girl stuff anymore. I concentrate on tear dance and gymnastics, and that's all I do, and I love it.

Gary Pageau 3:03

And you've got a really specialty when it comes to the silhouette as sort of your thing.

Sheryl Bashore 3:08

Yeah, that's kind of what I guess catapulted me into this whole thing was the silhouette. It changed everything for me and thankfully changed it for a lot of people because it gave a way to do something different that no one was doing, and capturing gorgeous imagery, won the moms over, and it just kind of went from there. And I it's how I actually I started teaching was I started teaching that.

Gary Pageau 3:37

Yeah, so I mean, both of you are very active on the speaker circuit. You've been places, I've seen you in places, you're going to places, and that's great. But you've also been very active in sort of online discussions and things like that related to some of the pressing issues of the day, which is kind of what we wanted to talk about today. Was not going to talk about your business so much, but talk about some of the issues that volume photographers are facing today. And I think one of the biggest ones is this whole holo glue around AI and copyright. You know, as you know, there's people out there who are advertising on Facebook marketplace or places like that, saying, Hey, I will take that ugly copyright uh watermark off your pitch kid's picture for $15 or something. And uh then there's technology that's come out recently that hopefully offset that. So, Bob, can you kind of let it know, since you are a copyright proponent, to talk a little bit about where you see that going and what the issues are?

Bob Kenward 4:42

Sure. So yeah, we've been fighting AI watermark removal for uh, you know, it seems like a long time, but it's really been about the last year, year and a half or so that it's really gotten prevalent. And we've, you know, all the different platforms have enhanced their watermarks and made them more trying to make them AI proof. And there's just no getting around it. If you if you post images on on the internet, even if they're watermarked, there are ways to remove them. It just depends on how much work you want to go through and what service you want to use. Platforms are still trying to make it a little bit more difficult. But what's and what's been happening is that people have platforms and and third-party vendors have been trying to come up with ways to eliminate the ability for the customer to screenshot or save the image so that then they can work on it. And each each platform has different capabilities to do that and different levels of prevention. There's no 100% solution, and there never really will be unless you don't put something online because you know, you can have all the screenshot protection you want where it blurs and it doesn't do this and it doesn't do that. But if you take a picture of it with your with another phone, you now have a clean picture of the image. There's there's always ways around it. But everything that's done, you know, be it a pop-up that says, hey, you know, it's not legal to screenshot to adding a watermark, to adding a blur, to adding something where the image blacks out when you try to save it. Each one of those deters more and more people. Sometimes some people are deterred, they just know it's not right and they don't do it. Other people, they get a pop-up or something before when they log into their account and they're like, oh, yeah, right, I'm not supposed to do that. Other people, they see the blur, they're like, Yeah, I shouldn't be doing this. And so everything you do eliminates some of that, but there's no 100% solution to that at all. I, you know, I I didn't think it was for me, I really didn't think it was a huge problem. I knew I'm sure people were screenshotting, and I've seen my images posted, watermarked images posted. And I always said, ah, they're not my customers, they're not gonna buy anything. And that's how I felt. And I installed one of the third-party uh applications, Snapchat by Carl Bott, which is and I put that, started using that in January on my gut photo account, and I was shocked, absolutely shocked, at how much there was going on. I the first few jobs that I posted with Snapchild turned on were upward basketball jobs. This is a Christian-oriented program, very nice people. And and the amount of screenshot attempts or loggings of screenshot attempts unbelievable. Like in, you know, in the uh in the first 24 hours, you know, 30 different people, you know, out of 150 attempted screenshots and saving of images. I could not believe it. I I really couldn't. And I don't have any empirical data to say whether that type of protection has increased my business or not, but I have had I have instances where people have done a number of screenshots, and one of the one of the features that turn that is now available on Snapchat is you can lock their account after X attempts. So I have mine set for five. So after five attempts, boop, they can't get into their pictures anymore. And it's there's a big banner that says, hey, you've too many screenshot attempts, contact the photographer at this email, blah, blah, blah. So I get these emails every once in a while. I actually got locked out, or you know, that kind of thing. And I just turn them back on. And you know what happens? Almost every time? They order. Yeah, they buy. And I look back at the customer history, and they've had a child in you know the league for the last two or three or four years with zero purchases ever. And now suddenly this year, they buy. There's no way for me to tell if if business has gone up until I go through like a season or a year of this, but it sure seems like some people are not are being pushed to buy rather than screenshot.

Gary Pageau 8:52

So, really quickly, and not in a salesy way, can you talk about what uh Snapchat actually does for those who aren't familiar with it?

Bob Kenward 9:02

Yeah, so Snapchat, Carl Bot developed it. It's a it's designed. I mean, it's can work with any platform if you can access do HTML add-ons to the site. He's a gut photo user, so it works perfect with gut photo. It may or may not work with any other platforms. I don't, I don't know that it currently does, but it works great with gut photo. And what it does is it allow, and it's very granular. The the photographer can choose what protections they want. So desktop protection, um, you can turn that on, and that means if you try to do a screenshot, it blacks out the image or blurs all the images. He there's different blur options and things like that. There's also a new add-on now, if you, and I forget what it's called, but if you leave the screen, like if you have your screen up with the images displayed, and you try to open a snipping tool, and then you go back and snip, if you leave, once the mouse leaves the active window, it blurs the images. So it that's to deter that. But the biggest thing about SnapShield is it has mobile protect. I say protection, has mobile capabilities, mobile protection in that it can blur the images. So when they, and this doesn't, when they do a screen, this is not when they do a screenshot, it's always half blurred or a third blurred or something, and he's got different choices. And then the customer has a little button on the, you know, that says see the other half of the picture or see, you know, move the blur kind of thing. And you click it and you can see the whole photo when you do that, but always part of it is blurred. So that's the deterrent for mobile. Because with mobile, if you don't, if you're operating through a web browser, which most online platforms do, it's very, very difficult. And and if not, there are rules against detecting actions on the phone and preventing those things. If you all, if you have a separate app, like if you had a gut photo app or a photo app, you know, then you can do it, absolutely. But nobody wants to do that because it impacts the customer experience. They have to install an app and that decreases sales all the time. So it's it's like that. But the other thing that Snapchill does is, and again, this is optional, you can pay extra to do this, is to record the activity. And then you get a report. Every time one is detected, you get a read a little entry in your dashboard that says this access code, or you know, try to do a long press or a screenshot or a desktop screenshot. And you can see the activity. That was the that's what I cared about was seeing whether it was uh just a little bit of activity or a lot.

Gary Pageau 11:31

Yeah. So Sherylan, let's jump here a little bit to you because I didn't want to turn this into a uh Bob Talks snipping twice.

Sheryl Bashore 11:38

But didn't he just say I he wouldn't talk?

Bob Kenward 11:41

That's it, I'm done. I won't get another word in.

Gary Pageau 11:45

So let's talk a little bit about your approach to this because it's not you you're less concerned about people doing screenshots. Let's talk about why that works for your business.

Sheryl Bashore 11:56

I I don't know if it's stick involved versus what I do. So I say that with like I I don't have baseball pictures up, I don't have basketball pictures up. What I do is very specific, and the imagery is gorgeous, stunning imagery, and these moms are paying a lot of money for them to be involved in these things. Like a dance costume is so expensive, and you know, the the cheer outfits are so, I mean, hundreds of dollars. So for me, I haven't found it, I should say, to deter my sales. I don't focus on it. I've spent years watching people say so-and-so stole an image on Facebook and I'm gonna go after the mom. And and I watch photographers do this all the time. And I'm always like, stop, stop posting that, stop publicly saying that. If people want to steal images, they will find a way. Just like Bob said, they'll take a phone, take a picture of a screen. They didn't snap anything, they will grow above this. Do I agree with Bob that when you see that pop up as a deterrent? Yeah, it is a deterrent. So maybe it gives someone a moment of conscience and they think about it. But the mom that's paying five dollars on Facebook to get the watermarks removed doesn't have a conscience about it. They they don't care. So for me, and I I know it's not apples to apples, but I would love, and I I will do this for the sake of to I have a cheer team, I'm gonna shoot Saturday and one Sunday. I will turn it on. I'm gonna do this for Bob because what I my thing is, and I get a lot of people that ask me this money, are you really not earning the same money? I have such a high buy rate and such a high average order value, it is not changing my business in any way, shape, or form. And maybe that's a whole pricing thing, but for me, I mean, are are my moms gonna see this? That's always my thing. But my buy rate is so high and the average order so high. I have not seen anything. If anything, all of my teams were higher this year than last year. All of them. None were less money. So my thing is if I install this, so like I said, Saturday, I have a team that I've shot every year for 25 years. I kid you not. So it's apples to apples, same amount of kids this year as last year. I would love to turn it on and see if my sales are different. Because I, in my mind, I don't, I don't see the value. I I just said this on a webinar I was on two days ago. Let it go. That's my opinion. Like, people are gonna steal if they want to steal. So much time and money is being put into this, this, and and how much is it that you pay for Snapchat and all of this time and effort? And are you really earning more money because you know that someone's trying to screenshot? And Bob said that. Like some people came back after the email getting locked out. Was it enough of a difference in profit? Because of, and I'm not saying it's not, I'm saying I that is that is that thing that I'm always telling people, let it go, let it go, concentrate on your business, concentrate on gorgeous imagery and and price it correctly. So you're making enough money that you don't care.

Bob Kenward 15:29

Yeah. I had not, you know, I I wasn't really worried about it, and I installed it as a test because I'm active in the community and I want to see if this is a big problem or not. And I thought it was not going to be. And I was, like I said, I was shocked at how many. But I've not seen my revenue go down like last year compared to this year, you know, the year before. No, it's all about the same, but so but I'm wondering, I don't know. I don't know. I don't I don't have enough data to really make a decision. But it's telling you, there was a lot of it going on, a lot of it.

Sheryl Bashore 15:59

Which, which I agree. I love that he says that. It was shocking. Like, yeah, and I know Bob. And Bob, when he first installed Snap Shield, he was like, Hey, Cheryl, what do you think? Oh my God, look at all these people. And I'm like, let it go, Bob. He's like, No, this is so cool. Look at all these people doing it. So I appreciate that because 90% of the people on Facebook are thinking like Bob with this. They all want protected, they're all hyper focused on watermarks and how do you change them? And who's gonna come up with the next watermark that's not AI removable? And and and I, it's such a big conversation. But are they making more money if the watermark's stronger? Are they making more money with snapshield? Are they making more money by catching the the perpetrators that or were they not gonna buy anyway?

Gary Pageau 16:49

Right. Yeah, who knows? I think it's too hard to tell, to be honest. I mean, I think that it's sort of one of those things.

Sheryl Bashore 16:55

No, because the next thing will come out and AI's gonna control that, and that snapshield won't matter. In six months from now, that will be in the rear view window and it'll be somewhere. Do you remember how many watermarks we've changed and got photos since we started? And I would like to think that my I don't even use the most current watermark because I found them too deterring that people couldn't see their daughter.

Bob Kenward 17:17

I was very, very happy when when I installed Snapchat and saw how it worked. I backed off to a much simpler watermark.

Sheryl Bashore 17:24

Yeah, I used the simple one. Yeah, I use a simple one. I don't even use the colorful one. I don't use that.

Gary Pageau 17:32

Do you think part of this might be an ignorance on the consumer's part about copyright? What they can and can't do.

Sheryl Bashore 17:41

No, no, I think people know they can pick their phone and they can snap. And unfortunately, that's where society. I mean, what did they do back in the day? I used to have I used to shoot cheer cops and we had computers. And whenever I shot Teams, we had a bank of computers. We would shoot, show on site, have our paper order forms, and people would order right on site. They would view them on site, and we would print on site. It was like boom, boom, boom. Like what you see a lot of people do now. We did 20, 25 years ago for 15 years. And every two seconds, there's somebody going like this trying to take a picture of that screen. We had big X marks, don't screenshot, don't no phones allowed. We had people standing there policing it. Put your phone down, put your phone down. It it's it's just the mentality of value. What do people value? They're pictures. People are like, well, I just want them. Why can't I have them? I'm not gonna pay $20.

Gary Pageau 18:45

Well, also, the I think part of the challenge, too. Maybe we're seeing everybody divert a little bit into kind of what's happening in youth sports, is the buy-in for parents to have their children involved in youth sports is so much higher than it is with the travel teams and the clubs and development leagues, and you better specialize in sport and stuff. That's a good question. Because you're gonna go pro and you need to be playing only baseball for 12 months out of the year. And you know, that's really been a lot of the criticism I've seen on this where the words out because it's expensive.

Sheryl Bashore 19:20

That's a great question for Bob. Bob, you do travel versus regular. There would be something where you could make a data comparison. Are your screenshots happening more in travel or less? Yeah, which one is? I've done yeah.

Bob Kenward 19:36

Travel teams, I've I mean, I've had some, but they buy mu the buy rates are much higher, the the order values are much higher with travel, but it's rec. But they're paying.

Sheryl Bashore 19:46

So maybe that's why I don't see it as well.

Bob Kenward 19:48

Yeah, I think so. These these leagues that I'm shooting, you know, some of these leagues they they pay next to nothing to have their child in the league. It's not expensive. Maybe $50, you know, it's nothing. And very prevalent on the screenshotting. That was and I don't think it's an affluence issue with the parents or anything. It could be, but I don't think it's necessarily that. I think it's just it's just the way they approach it.

Sheryl Bashore 20:12

Commitment level. It's also yeah, Gary, Gary doesn't even realize how smart that was, what he just said. It is a commitment level that the honestly, that to me was that like aha moment. Like, I think that's why it's not a big deal in what I do because these people are so paying so much money, they want those gorgeous, they they want to do what's behind me.

Bob Kenward 20:34

And they don't want, they don't want a crappy quality low res image that they screenshot it because it's not a high-res image that they're getting. They want the full resolution, beautiful imagery to make a canvas for their wall or something like that. And they're not gonna do that with the with with a you know, the the ones when you screenshot it, remove that. It's a low res image to start with, you know, it's for sticking on the refrigerator, print it on paper, and put it on the refrigerator. That's not it. But it's smart.

Sheryl Bashore 21:01

I will do it though and come back to you guys with it. I'll be I'm gonna just for the sake of argument. I I wanna maybe I'll sit here the next time we all talked, and like Bob, I'll be shocked. But for me to not do it, I maybe I need to see it.

Gary Pageau 21:19

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how this kind of shakes up. Like you said, because technology is gonna not gonna change, AI is only gonna get better. And you know, Bob, you're doing composites now. You know, at some point, you know, maybe there'll be some AI generation in there too. That could be sure.

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Bob Kenward 21:36

Well, my but I use AI backgrounds that are generated. Yeah. Me too. Absolutely. So yeah.

Gary Pageau 22:19

So let's talk a little bit, and you kind of touched on a little earlier about kind of the the the the pricing thing, right? Where are you kind of seeing pricing going with sort of the uncertainty in the economy going on now? And everything kind of being kind of crazy. Are you seeing any uh are you able to command what you used to command or be able to make adjustments?

Sheryl Bashore 22:42

And how are you it doesn't affect me? I mean, I'm like I said, I'm in a different world. So I can't I can't speak for Bob's world. My world, it's not an issue. I charge a lot of money, I have zero kickback and you know, from the parents. I once in a while, I guess I'll hear something. But if a mom needs to spend $50, she spends $50. Like it's still the capabilities there in my pricing. So that a mom that can't afford it, I care about. But I parents are spending obscene money on pictures, like crazy. And I mean, if I I have a team up right now, and I think that like 70 bought and it's at 25,000. Like it's crazy numbers in my world, and that's cheer. That isn't even dance. Like it's so in my world, it's a different mentality. They spend so much money to be involved in all-star cheer, so much money for gymnastics, so much money for dance that they want. If you give them gorgeous imagery, they freak out and they buy it. So it hasn't been, I mean, there's this whole prepay versus not. I am dead against prepay in my world, a hundred percent against it because of financial versus emotional. And that's huge. In Bob's world, prepay is very big deal and very important. And Bob can speak about that. I can't, but in my world, I'm like, don't do it. Whatever you do, don't do it. Right.

Gary Pageau 24:16

And so what I'm doing is why?

Sheryl Bashore 24:19

Because you're maybe it forces mom into a financial mindset. I want mom not to have to think about the money or deal with anything. And the first time she thinks about those pictures is when they're in front of her on a computer, edited, done, stunning. And then it's emotional. The one she sees her child, not well, I've already spent this money, so I'll order this, or I'm just gonna add this. I take all of the financials, like someone asked me the other day, no one ever sees a price list of mine, ever, except for when I'm teaching photographers. That's it. I don't show a price list ever to my customers. It's pure emotions, and photography is emotional. So my thing is if you focus on that, but again, I'm not sticking ball.

Gary Pageau 25:07

So I think let's go to the stick and ball guy. Sure. Do you have a different basis for like direct leagues where you may have people who are not as financially committed? And maybe you're you you know you can't get as much because that's the screenshot with an extra phone crowd.

Bob Kenward 25:27

So I mean, yeah, my my prices are nowhere near what Cheryl can command for the genre that she that she photographs. But like her, we have similarities. I have low-priced item, low, relatively low-priced items. So mom can get away with spending, you know, $18 and getting a product, or they can spend a couple of hundred dollars and get a bunch more products, or you know, download all and that kind of thing. It's I'm not gonna reveal my my levels compared to what Cheryl just said, but it's for stick and ball, my prices are not low. They they I command a good amount, and I've seen no difference in you know, buy rates and stuff. It's hard to tell when you have different leagues and different areas, but if you, you know, I haven't seen any trend down. My my revenue is right where it was last year at this time, and I haven't seen any difference because of the economy. I have very rarely get any complaint about prices, you know. And if no one's complaining about your prices, you're too low. So somebody should be complaining. Every once in a while, I had one, had one the other day, you know, hey, I have three kids. What do you do for siblings? And I'm like, oh, I have packages. Look for the ones that say sibling at the end, and those allow you to mix your siblings into one package, and that will save you money. So, you know, we we try to cater to them, but I've not seen any anything there. But I have my price list addresses the people who can't afford a lot up to the people who want to spend a lot, but it doesn't go to the doesn't go nearly as high as what Cheryl does. And it's just it's because of what I shoot. It's the same idea, but it's because of what I photograph. We, you know, rec leagues where the kids are not, it's not a high commitment. They, you know, soccer, they pay $50 and they need a pair of shin guards and a ball. That's it. Right. The parents out, the parents out $75 for the season. And so, you know, they don't want to spend $500 on pictures. They'll spend $80 or $90 or $100 or $120 on pictures, but they don't want to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars on pictures. Right. Travel is a different story.

Gary Pageau 27:31

Right.

Bob Kenward 27:31

Kids pay more to play travel baseball, travel softball. And my price list is higher for that. And I do some things differently. So for instance, Rec, we do the standard, you know, eight by ten team photo. Everybody stacked a team photo. Travel, no, we do a panoramic layout. So it's an eight by twenty-four print. Oh, yeah. And we charge more for it. And it's looks different and it's nicer and it's full length if they don't wear Crocs to the shoot, you know, that kind of thing. So it we treat them differently. They we the price list is higher and they pay more, they spend more. So yeah, it just depends on the level. Yeah.

Sheryl Bashore 28:08

I actually have rec tier and rec gymnastics, and I have lower pricing for them because I do believe it's a different mentality when you're investing less in what you're doing. I think that that holds true. And it's not much less, but it's less.

Bob Kenward 28:27

And in sports, typically, you know, the more the parent spends to put the child in the sport, the more they'll spend a picture. So, for instance, soccer is a low end, and my my sales per athlete photographed are lower on soccer. Football, much higher because they spend more to put the equipment on the child. If I had the luxury of shooting ice hockey or something like that, it's even higher. Ice hockey is a huge one. So the more the parent has to invest to put the child, even in rec sports, tends to track the more they'll spend on photos.

Gary Pageau 29:02

I find it interesting.

Sheryl Bashore 29:03

You're seeing about it's like just unleash Cheryl today. I am dead against that. It's my tough love. It's no, why do you combine them? What the heck? No, no, and no. They don't walk into a store and get a shirt free, they don't get a kid free. You get one kid in soccer and your second kid's free. They still pay for the second kid. So I don't understand.

Bob Kenward 29:38

Not always on rec. A lot of times they discount the uh the kids.

Sheryl Bashore 29:45

If they have in cheer, some cheer will give them 20 off. Well, they have a 20 off coupon. Use it. So all of mine have a coupon initially for two weeks. Use it for your siblings. But no, I do not combine galleries ever. You have to buy both. And I just saw someone, Jonathan Buildings, just made this big post on Facebook about it. And I cracked up because I was like, it's exactly what I teach.

Bob Kenward 30:12

So, Cheryl, do when you take a picture of two the two siblings together, that goes in both galleries. Yeah, galleries, right? Some people will separate those sibling photos into yet another gallery and try and sell them differently.

Sheryl Bashore 30:27

I don't, I just want mom to buy all. It's too much work. Right. And I'll have a mom if she wants to buy six digital, let's say. So my digital is one, six, or all. There's no like different tiers of 5,000 packages. It's very simplified. And if they want to buy six, and and they'll be like, well, can you go? I have two moms fighting with me right now that are insisting I combine them. And why? I have all these other moms who already bought and didn't ask. So I can no longer go down that road. But you can buy four individual and two of them together for your six package, then buy four individual of that kid and two together for their package because the siblings are in both.

Gary Pageau 31:11

Right.

Sheryl Bashore 31:12

So they still can do. I don't want to hear that they can't do that. They just want to do the buy all and get one kids.

Bob Kenward 31:22

Right. You're getting money. I don't do that.

Sheryl Bashore 31:24

Or they'll say my cousin. I'm like, no, like I'm I am tough love about it in a big way, because at the end of the day, I have to pay all my people.

Gary Pageau 31:35

Right.

Sheryl Bashore 31:35

And and I'm not a one-man show. I walk in, there's six to ten of us at every shoot. Like, I have to pay everyone. And then it's all the after costs and your your insurance and your tax and your and your snap shield and your like.

Gary Pageau 31:50

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that you know, but you know, that's one of the things you always see the pushback because unfortunately I do spend a little bit of time looking at some of the the commentary online from parents who are talking complaining about this stuff. And they go, Well, I can take the same thing with my iPhone or whatever. And you know, they don't understand what the value of what they're getting with a volume photographer or professional sport photographer, and all the overhead that's involved with that. And maybe that's part of an industry issue where that's not being communicated that you know a real professional has all these other things.

Sheryl Bashore 32:27

Yeah. I don't know. It's a big, and I'm telling you, I have a couple moms, every team I shoot that fight with me about this. So it's it's an issue for me. I just be I just stay the course. What are they fighting? I'm really sorry. They want me to combine their kids.

Gary Pageau 32:45

Yeah.

Sheryl Bashore 32:46

Because I used to. In the beginning, I used to combine siblings all the time. And then I realized that I was cheating myself as well as the mom who didn't have siblings was getting mad. And I just had to straight across the board just say no.

Gary Pageau 33:03

Well, I've heard of it, too.

Sheryl Bashore 33:04

And it hasn't affected me, you know, like as far as sales go, because I I mean that when I look at numbers, it hasn't like changed anything. Ultimately, that mom could buy all of one and one of another.

Gary Pageau 33:21

I mean and then she's picking a favorite kid, she doesn't want to do that.

Sheryl Bashore 33:27

Right. They just figure, I I was joking, they just figure that I'll drink a couple glasses of wine and give in.

[Ad] The Climb with Cherie Clonan

(Cont.) Candid Copyright Conversation with Sheryl Bashore and Bob Kenward

Gary Pageau 33:33

But that's quite possible, right? But no. So when we're looking at kind of uh what's going on in the near future, near term, what are you what are you seeing is happening in the value space? I mean, because right now on the school side, of course, there's the whole controversy with Lincoln, which we don't we've already agreed, we're not getting into, but and but the the the the pushback on that, we I've been seeing is that a lot of the concern the industry has on that is the school saying you know, we're just gonna take it the picture ourselves. We won't even use the photographer. Are you are you guys running into it all any people who start to say, hey, maybe the assistant coach can change the picture, or uh we've got an involved mom who can do it, or their manager or something? Because I'm starting to see some of that in the marketplace where people are getting any kind of like squirrely about engaging a professional.

Sheryl Bashore 35:03

I would think in Bob's world more than mine. I don't I don't think it's a thing in my world.

Bob Kenward 35:10

I haven't seen it in the stick and ball sports world at all yet. Not to say it couldn't happen. In fact, I've I've worked on leagues that never did photos, they just didn't bother and gotten them to do photos. So, you know, I don't I haven't seen it. Uh, and it certainly could happen, absolutely could, but I haven't I haven't seen that yet.

Sheryl Bashore 35:32

I haven't. I I mean I run into the dance teacher that wants to take our own pictures because they want the profit for the dance studio, things like that. But I I I shouldn't say I run into I've heard of that, but I haven't, it hasn't been a thing.

Bob Kenward 35:49

I I will say I've had experiences where a league has, you know, I've had a league for a few years and then they say, ah, we're gonna go in a different direction. And you know, 80% of the time after that first year of going in a different direction, they come back because what they had is they had some someone more local or a mom or something who thought they could do it, and maybe they and and they didn't do a good job. They don't realize with volume photography, it's about, you know, for my stick and ball, it's like five percent photography and 95% business and customer service and taking orders and delivering orders. Cheryl's photography count is a little higher, I think. So they don't realize the amount of work. I had one league that did that, and and I saw the photos that were delivered six weeks after their photo day. Yeah, they're already booked back with me, already booked for the fall. Yeah. I love that stuff. Yeah, they learned that.

Gary Pageau 36:43

I mean, are you even getting, you know, look thinking of your operations, you know, is there really room for growth? Yeah, unless you want to start adding multiple staff, which again is very hard, very difficult these days, adding people who are relying on what they're doing.

Sheryl Bashore 37:01

Like room to grow as far as bringing on more customers, right?

Gary Pageau 37:04

You know, bringing on more customers.

Sheryl Bashore 37:06

Um well, I think I mean, for me, I am always looking to evolve and change and grow. So what's the next thing? So for me, it was we're gonna add headshots, then we're gonna, you know, we're gonna do that at every shoot, and then it was we're gonna add gels, and then we're gonna add smoke, and then we're gonna add that. So I'm always looking for what's the next thing to keep my customers happy and alive. But fortunately for me, their their dance outfits change every year. Right. So, or tier changes. So mom wants to see the growth. It's like that's school picture mentality. Whether you like it or not, mom wants a picture of that kid every year so they can have it when they get married or you know, have their own kids. Or so I think for us, for me, it's the growth is always there. And now I've I've grown to the point where I have teams of people so I could send them without me. Then and we could hit two instead of one and things like that. Right.

Bob Kenward 38:10

I'm yeah, I was gonna say I'm a little bit the opposite of that. I'm it's just me, and I have no desire to grow to be able to have uh two stations or send two people, ten people other places. I'm too old for that stress. So I like to live my life. I like to live my life as stress-free as possible. So it's just me. And so I don't, if it if the league is too big, I'll tell them right up it's too many kids. So I don't have time for that. I don't, I can't do that in one day like you want. So we're not gonna take it. That's my luxury. Now, if I wanted to grow, yeah, I could grow. I absolutely could grow. I could, I could put the you know, the the other folks in my area out of business pretty quickly, I think, because I get calls all the time for leagues wanting to sign with me. I had one this morning, not the county south, and it's but it's parks and rec stuff. It's soccer and some baseball and some softball. And I'm like, dude, I got no time in the spring. I literally can't, I don't, it's not that I can't. I don't want to add any more any more business this spring. So they'll go with someone else, which is fine. And I always but isn't that the luxury of all of us to say no? Yes. And I constantly, every year, I reevaluate every account I have and I put down the amount of revenue I made per photographed athlete, not order values or how many bought. I don't care about that. I care if 200 kids came in front of my camera, how much did I make on each child, whether they bought or not? So it's the total, you know, the total gross divided by the kids. That's what I care about. And that's what I look at and I rank order them. And I decide I'm not gonna help, I'm not gonna service this one anymore. We're not gonna service this one anymore. Because there's always other leagues out there that are in my size demographic that I'm looking for for numbers of kids, and I will target them. So I will take a soccer league and cut them out and replace them with the softball league any day because I know I'll make more money. A baseball league, a football league.

Gary Pageau 40:05

For the same number of people, yeah, for the same number of people.

Bob Kenward 40:08

Absolutely.

Gary Pageau 40:09

Yeah, the yeah, the different yeah, I guess from Mark Hummer Day, it's a big thing.

Bob Kenward 40:14

I have you you'd be shocked.

Gary Pageau 40:17

That's what he does. He does revenue per head photograph.

Bob Kenward 40:21

Yeah, that's the only thing that matters. I don't all these people, oh, my average order value is $82. So's mine. But it doesn't matter. It's how much should you make for every child you photographed? Now, if you only photograph the ones that buy, like if you do a prepay and you only photograph the ones that buy, that's great. You're probably gonna have a really high. But in general, you're photographing everybody if you're not doing prepay. And what matters is how much you make per head. That's I agree.

Sheryl Bashore 40:47

I and I I always stress with people, I'm the same way. Like I'll have another tier team that's this many kids and it's this much, or cheer team with that many kids and it's this much. So I'm like Bob. I try to kind of clear through why, but I shoot a lot less than people think out of choice. Same just as Bob. I'm too old. I don't want to do it anymore. I don't want to work to death. Right. And and both of us teach a lot. So we're traveling and teaching and all of that. So for me, I shoot less now than I ever did, but I make more money now than I ever did. So it's for some reason the formulas, the pricing, the the imagery, whatever have you, that's what's nice about being online is you can make more money than you were.

Gary Pageau 41:37

Right.

Sheryl Bashore 41:38

And I I don't add new ones either unless it's like one I really wanted for some reason. I I'm very choosy.

Gary Pageau 41:48

When you go to SPAC every year, it seems like they're they're booming and they're drawing. And it seems like I think this year like 30% of their audience was new, just brand new people who never what would you advise someone getting into this in your particular genres, right? Or run something like that. Because I'm sure you see still why you need to workshops and things. Like, do you ever come across people and go, you know, this person is the next lap star, or this person isn't gonna be your next prisoner tournament?

Sheryl Bashore 42:22

All the time. I know for me in my world, it's it's imagery-based. You have to know how to shoot a gorgeous image. You can't, it's not just point and shoot. So you have to understand movement. And it I get many people that their imagery is gorgeous, they just have no systems, no business head. And they can't understand what we do is not portrait photography. What we do is a business, and your systems and the business side of it are almost more important than anything else to be successful. So you can't just take a camera and shoot.

Bob Kenward 43:03

Absolutely. Bob, just agree with me. Well, it's a little bit less, I think, for the stick and ball. The imagery is is is important. Obviously, it's the most important thing, but it's not, it's more the business. Yes, it's easier. It's the it's and especially for composite, because you really everything's locked down. There's no decisions to be made. If you're doing traditional sports photography on a field with the sun and changing and clouds, that you better be a photographer to do that well. But for me, I really don't. You don't have to be. But what I always advise people, I say, one, if the if I meet him at SPAC, I'm like, you've already done the first best step. You came to a conference to learn and talk to people. It's the people that show up online and say, I don't have time to go to a conference, I can't go to a conference, I have too many kids, I can't do this, I can't afford those are the people that frustrate me because they're trying to do Facebook University, and it is not the way to learn this stuff. You have, you have to talk one-on-one and attend classes and learn the business side. There, they might be great photographers. It's all business, processes, and workflow. Uh that's what I excel at, and I have it dialed in. I'm right now, I'm running Pixnub right over here on this computer. I got 6,000 more images to go another five and a half hours, but that's my high school that I shot yesterday and the day before. And it's running now. It'll be done. It'll be posted for sale tomorrow. I might wait till Monday to put it up. But it it's you have to have your efficiency, your processes, your workflow. It's the only way to do it. Otherwise, you you just sit there and wallow in editing. I'm not editing, it's the computer's doing the work for me. I don't have to do anything.

Gary Pageau 44:39

I thought it interesting you made the Facebook university thing, right? Because you know, there is a lot of that where you I mean, if you look through the forums, there's currently people who you know think they know it all. They're giving terrible advice to other people. Yeah, yes. It's horrific to see. Yeah.

Bob Kenward 45:01

I try to I I try to redirect some of that, but sometimes I just look at it. My head like new, not even going down this one, not even gonna touch this one.

Sheryl Bashore 45:09

But or you you have someone that you like they go to every single person they can to ask the same question.

Bob Kenward 45:17

Same question. And I'm like, what do you think? Anyone's advice and take and don't take anyone's advice. Then do it a different way, they do it a different way, and then complain when it didn't work and blame the system, the workflow, the process instead of themselves.

Gary Pageau 45:31

Right, right.

Bob Kenward 45:31

Not my fault. Oh my platform failed, or this didn't work, or that no, we didn't listen to it's a hard business.

Sheryl Bashore 45:39

It's not people think they can just jump in. You have to learn, you have to, like he said, do the workshops, get a mentor, go to the conferences. We both did it. We both went to so many conferences and workshops, and and you can't just walk in and watch one speaker talk one time, and then you've got it.

Gary Pageau 46:03

Well, if they go to Cheryl, if they go to yours, they've seen you do it.

Sheryl Bashore 46:09

Takes more than that. But I always laugh about it because I'm like, your imagery's gorgeous. And they're like, but how does it do? I'm like, because you're not listening. It's what Bob said systems, systems, systems. And everything that Bob just talked about is systems, system of how we shoot, system of how he edits, system how it goes online, systems of your setup, pose choices, pose orders, everything.

Bob Kenward 46:35

Everything where where the poser stands in relation to the to the athlete, right side or left side. Which way are they gonna turn? Where are you gonna have to give them the ball? It's every little step saved, it's speed. And it's all for me, stick a ball, it's all about speed. So sport, I'm I'm 35 to 45 seconds with an athlete, and we're doing four poses plus a team pose.

Sheryl Bashore 46:59

It's someone just asked me this two days ago on the webinar, and they were like, Well, how long is a kid in front of you? Like each child with the imagery you put out, are they in front of you half an hour, an hour? I'm like, I'm a portrait photographer. No, I'm not. I'm a volume photographer. That dancer's in front of me two and a half minutes. But the imagery they're given looks like they've been with me for hours. And that's the difference of and volume to portrait.

Gary Pageau 47:29

Yeah.

Sheryl Bashore 47:29

And I think portrait photographers can dip their toe into volume and be so successful if they're open to the business and the systems because they've already got the imagery. Yeah, it's it's learning the business.

Gary Pageau 47:45

Yeah. Cheryl.

Sheryl Bashore 47:47

Neither one of us got here.

Gary Pageau 47:49

Are you gonna try and I'm just curious how it goes to show? Are you gonna work in some silhouettes maybe in one of those four poses? Can you throw in a silhouette of a lab job? He does.

Bob Kenward 47:59

He does occasionally, occasionally do for sticking ball. Yeah, for travel, not for wreck. No time. Yeah, thank you.

Gary Pageau 48:06

I've seen Cheryl's silhouette lighting setup and demo, and it's quite a thing.

Sheryl Bashore 48:13

Yeah, it's fast. Yeah, it's super, especially now, like you said, with evolution, we used to have to unplug a light and plug it back in. Then it was turn a light on and off, then triggers happen. Then, you know, for me now with creative masking, I don't it just boom, boom, boom. I don't have to do anything. I no longer have to, you know, manipulate while I'm shooting. So most kids are in front of me a lot less time nowadays. But two and a half minutes is kind of that what I tell people the sweet spot.

Gary Pageau 48:44

One of the last things that I want to talk about is there's always this sort of thing in the vonting community where you know, if we could just get video involved, we would could make so much more money. Like if we could just like sell a video clip or something. Is that even part of your equation at all?

Sheryl Bashore 49:06

No, not at all. That that's a social media thing.

Bob Kenward 49:11

Or or if if you're doing like a media day for some teams, you know, a real media day, fog, jails, no, no fire, no fire, but you know, that sort of thing, then video might absolutely be a good addition, but not for what I do. Not for what I do, not for what I do, and not for what Cheryl's. And again, we're shooting composite, so we're on a white last, you know, highlight background. It's not very captivating to see the picture out of camera or what's going on. But if you were doing smoke and gels and all that stuff, I think then the the video has has value.

Sheryl Bashore 49:43

But I think the video is valuable for, like I said, social media. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like that's that's where parents want it and where they see it, but I don't they want it, but they won't pay for it.

Gary Pageau 49:55

Well, that's right. That's where I was getting to. The only thing that's came up, in my opinion, that I've seen a video product for volume or sport that's monetizable.

Bob Kenward 50:08

Right, right. You won't get anybody to pay for it.

Sheryl Bashore 50:10

Yeah, it's just crazy. I remember cheer comps, all the people in the audiences with their iPads videoing the cheer routine. And then back in the day, there would be a video guy videoing the cheer routine. I'm like, what are you doing? Like you have an audience filled that's videoing, and the video at that point, it's not like they're getting some crazy video.

Gary Pageau 50:35

It's just a great static performance thing. Right. Yeah.

Sheryl Bashore 50:39

Yeah.

Gary Pageau 50:40

I think it's a kind of a different market, but but that's different.

Sheryl Bashore 50:43

I think that's a portrait, a wedding, uh, you know, something like that. I don't think it falls into our volume world.

Gary Pageau 50:51

Right. But yeah, I the reason why I ask is because people are still trying to excited. It's yeah, maybe someone will unlock that, right? Maybe there is. I don't know. Yeah. They gotta be able to pay for it. Right. They gotta find a way to buy it.

Bob Kenward 51:06

Too many photographers don't they give too much away and they don't charge what they should for what they're doing.

Sheryl Bashore 51:12

Wow, you're right. See, that was no Bob's.

Bob Kenward 51:17

We should do like a workshop or something to teach all this stuff to do.

Sheryl Bashore 51:20

We should together. I think so.

Bob Kenward 51:23

It'd be a good idea.

Sheryl Bashore 51:24

Where would you do this workshop? It's in here, right here. It's in July, and they get me and Bob, and I'm gonna make Bob dresses. No, no, Lucien.

Gary Pageau 51:44

There you go.

Bob Kenward 51:44

Yeah, I don't have the hair.

Gary Pageau 51:47

We'll get you a wig. So listen, uh uh, where can people either see you guys speak next? I know some uh at least one of you has a speaking game coming up. Reach out more, or just be in touch with you to learn more about the things you do. Because you guys are the go-to for many people on how to run this kind of business.

Sheryl Bashore 52:13

Well, if anyone's going to Shudderfast, they can sign up for my class and it's all about headshots and how I do creative masking and the gels and the bubbles and all the fun stuff, and turn a simple headshot into stunning and so easy. I kid you not. I I show my headshots all the time in trade shows. It's so simplistic and easy to add that. So even for the portrait person, things like that. So that's next. And then Bob and I are at Got Photo Camp together. That is in June. Yeah. And then in July, we'll be here together for our workshop. And then you get like literally hours on end with Bob and hours on end with me. Bob will be teaching a bunch of different stuff this year.

Bob Kenward 53:01

That's what three three days, two and a half days, three days.

Sheryl Bashore 53:04

It's gonna be three days this time. We're adding that Friday in because everyone came in on Thursday night anyway. So they'll have Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

Gary Pageau 53:13

Yeah, and this will be like a hands-on workshop. Is it limited to hands-on hands-on?

Sheryl Bashore 53:19

We limit the amount of people they actually get to shoot and do all the things. Bob teaches. I think. Are you gonna teach Pick Snub again?

Bob Kenward 53:27

And I'll teach whatever you order me to teach, but yes, I'd love to teach Pixnub.

Sheryl Bashore 53:32

Bob literally will be like, Cheryl told me not to talk about this, but shh, like, I can't hear him in the other room. And then he'll teach it. He teaches his his light meter.

Bob Kenward 53:43

Yes, light metering workflow, efficiency. It's all about that. It's all about that.

Sheryl Bashore 53:50

I let I'll do whatever Bob wants.

Bob Kenward 53:53

Yeah. So yeah, like Cheryl said, I'll be at summer camp and at her workshop in July and then then SPAC again in January, I'm sure. So yeah, right. So I always yeah, love going there and doing that stuff. I love teaching and I really enjoy it. So if you do your thing, it's very evident.

Gary Pageau 54:10

You love sharing your knowledge, and uh that's one of the good things about the industry is that people want to share what they do.

Bob Kenward 54:17

I do have one team, yeah. And I have one groundbreaking announcement that I just found out about, and I'm sure by the time this podcast airs, people will know about this. But I I can at least release it now. I just got the email from Gut Photo that they are partnering with Carl Bot for Snapchat to integrate it onto the gut photo platform, and I think that's huge. Gut Photo has their own desktop protection, screenshot protection for desktop only, but most of the screenshot attempts come from mobile, about three quarters in my account. And Carl does have deterrence for mobile plus tracking. I think it's a great decision for them to rather than trying to build their own solution. I do too. Yes, partner and turnkey. Carl's a big user of Got Photo and a supporter of Gut Photo, so it's a perfect marriage. I congratulate Carl on the deal, and I'm anxious to see it rolled out. They say they're gonna roll it out in the spring season. So I think this is just great.

Sheryl Bashore 55:17

This and I think Carl, another guest.

Bob Kenward 55:21

It puts them ahead of I think any other platform as far as capability to mitigate screenshots. Until something else comes out too until yes, of course.

Sheryl Bashore 55:32

For now, but hopefully, Carl will be forward-thinking enough if he did this that he'll be ahead of what that is. Yeah, so I mean, and I will as all of you are witnessing today, I will put it in place for I have two teams this weekend, I'll put it in, and I've shot both these teams. I'm telling you, 20 years plus.

Bob Kenward 55:54

So it'd be interesting. Yeah, and I will be interesting to see what happens in your genre, in your world, yeah, as far as that.

Sheryl Bashore 56:01

I want to see if that's I usually don't think about it.

Gary Pageau 56:05

So I didn't either. Say that again. You that might be something you want to mention in got photo summer camp.

Bob Kenward 56:16

If you're the results of that, yeah. I'm I'm sure there'll be sessions on screenshots, screenshot protection. I think having real-world empirical data is important to to show the the yeah, you know, the the scope of the problem, and and it would be great if we could show increased or decreased sales due to it or due to protection.

Sheryl Bashore 56:35

I I don't know that we're there yet, but or even just people in my world, trust me, those moms will bitch. Yeah, if they've screenshot it and it got blurry, and I'll be the first to hear about it. So I will definitely report back to you guys on on yeah, that'll be great. I'm interested to see because I always hear Bob, we talk about it a lot, him and I, and always be like, I was shocked, I was shocked. I'm like, Yeah, nah nah nah, I don't want to hear it. Bob's like, seriously, seriously, and I'm like, no. So giving in, yeah, because I feel like I can't knowledgeably talk about it without trying it.

Bob Kenward 57:08

So that's why that's why I did it, and now I yeah, yeah.

Gary Pageau 57:11

Well you're you're a proponent of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for having me in as a guest on your podcast. That's what it felt like.

Sheryl Bashore 57:22

We'll invite you back.

Gary Pageau 57:24

Sure. So, Bob, real quick, uh, where can people reach you directly to get more information about all the things you do?

Bob Kenward 57:32

I'm uh in the Facebook groups. You can message me on Facebook, that's a good way that usually works. I if if you if you've ever seen me speak, I've posted my link tree. It's got my phone number and my email. You're welcome to reach out those ways too. Uh leave a voicemail because it probably won't pick up. But Facebook Messenger actually works pretty darn well, and most people can get to me through a group there. Yeah.

Gary Pageau 57:53

And sure.

Bob Kenward 57:54

Or tag tag me in a comment if you want an in an input for me. So yeah.

Gary Pageau 57:58

And I was gonna say the same thing.

Sheryl Bashore 58:01

We're both on Facebook, we're both in the Facebook photo group. I have my own Facebook group, it's called Mastering Cheer, Dance, and Gymnastic Photography. So come join. That's an easy way to find me. Instagram, Sherald Z Photo, that's always an easy way to find me. Things like that. And I try to keep my Instagram to photographers as best I can.

Gary Pageau 58:26

Yep.

Sheryl Bashore 58:27

I don't know that that's a thing, but I try. So that's another good way. And the same thing, I have a link tree. If you go to actually, it's SherylZeducation.com, and in there is the links to everything, and I'll have the link to the which Bob will have the link also to the workshop, and we'll start posting that soon, I would say, really soon.

Gary Pageau 58:50

Sounds good. Awesome. Well, thank you guys. Appreciate your time. Appreciate the insight and everything you've been able to share. And look forward to seeing you soon. Take care.

Bob Kenward 58:58

Thank you. Always a pleasure to chat with you.

Erin Manning 59:03

Thank you for listening to The Dead Pixels Society podcast. Read more great stories and sign up for the newsletter at www.theadpixels society.com.