How Mixbook uses AI to tell real stories, with Andrew Laffoon

Your camera roll isn’t a memory system, it’s a backlog, and the bigger it gets, the harder it is to turn real moments into something you can actually revisit. Gary Pageau of The Dead Pixels Society sits down with Mixbook CEO and co-founder Andrew Laffoon as Mixbook hits its 20th anniversary. We dig into a question that matters to anyone who cares about photography, printing, or preserving family history: What makes a photo book feel like a story?

Laffoon gets specific about the real friction points that stop people from finishing photo books. Years ago, the problem was missing the right shots. Now it’s the opposite: thousands of images, multiple shooters, and no clear starting point. He walks us through Mixbook’s new Story Mode, an AI photo book workflow that starts with a prompt, interviews the customer to capture intent and tone, then proposes structure, selects scenes, lays out spreads, and writes narrative text that’s meant to sound like your voice. We also talk craftsmanship, why “the last five percent” is most of the work, and why AI has to feel helpful rather than generic, creepy, or oddly robotic.

Laffoon also discusses the market, too: who the “chief memory officer” is, why younger generations are printing more than you might think, and why the industry still struggles with awareness compared to TikTok and short-form video.

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Transcript

Sponsors And Welcome

Erin Manning 0:00

The Dead Pixels Society Podcast is brought to you by Media clip, Advertek Printing, and Independent Photo Imagers. Welcome to The Dead Pixel Society Podcast, the photoimaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau.

Gary Pageau 0:20

Hello again and welcome to The Dead Pixels Society Podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau, and today we're joined by one of the OG Dead Pixels Society people, Andrew Laffoon, who is the CEO and co-founder of Mixbook, which is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year and rolling out some crazy AI goodness. Hi Andrew, how are you today?

Andrew Laffoon 0:44

Doing well, Gary. Great to be back on with you.

Gary Pageau 0:48

So, how was that for an introduction? We got a lot of ground to cover because you guys have been around. You know, we're gonna talk about your anniversary in a little bit, but you're not sitting still. So, for those 12 people who aren't unaware of your kind of the journey of mixed book, how is it that you got into the business all those many moons ago?

Mixbook Origin And Mission

Andrew Laffoon 1:08

Yeah, I met my co-founder in college at UC Berkeley. We were both engineering undergrads, and we were always brainstorming ideas. And the joke is one day we were we were scrapbooking together, which of course is not really the real story. The real story is we actually got inspired at Berkeley to democratize all the things, right? The idea Berkeley is very big on how do we bring the power of the few to the masses. And for us, we're captivated by this idea of democratizing storytelling. We initially applied it in the yearbook space because in yearbooks, you've got 20 people making a yearbook for 2000, right? But most people's stories aren't really in there, right? So wouldn't it be great if the team, the group of friends, the activity club could actually add their own content or even make their own yearbook? That's how it starts. Yeah. And because really, if you kind of zoom out, big picture, our culture has moved more and more towards the people who get to tell their stories are the few and they're the high and mighty, right? Right. But our stories don't really get told and don't really get paid attention to. And so that was really the idea. And we found out about this whole space of photo books when I made a gift as a going-away present for some close friends, and the gift giving experience was amazing. They cried, they said it was the best gift they ever received, but the experience of creating it was not good.

Gary Pageau 2:29

Yeah.

Andrew Laffoon 2:29

So we pretty quick quickly pivoted from your books to photo books because we thought this is the storytelling medium of this decade. It's replacing photo albums, bringing it into a really great classic storytelling format.

What Makes A Story Work

Gary Pageau 2:45

So, in your model, what is a story?

Andrew Laffoon 2:52

Good question. So, yes, you're right. Story is a broad term. And to kind of go back into it for a minute, like I grew up with a dad who loved to tell stories. He would tell us, we would go on our family vacation at the beach, and he would tell us these elaborate three, four, five-night stories involving my siblings as like hero characters and so on. And so, like the idea of stories was always captivating to me. But then on the other side of the equation, you've got the like aunt, your aunt's carousel of her trip that somebody wants to watch.

Gary Pageau 3:24

Right.

Andrew Laffoon 3:24

And so, my question is actually, there's a lot of interesting things that happen in our lives, but telling a good story is actually hard.

Gary Pageau 3:32

And that's why I asked the question because you know, as a society, we're really pivoted a lot towards entertainment and all these things of storytelling, right? It's sort of like where everything's going, and you know, telling stories, and most people, when they see a movie or something, can identify that was good or that wasn't, but that doesn't mean they can actually do it. That's right, which is why people are really good at short term short form video have that down, right? Because they know they know that visual language of that sort of thing, but not everyone can do it, and it's one of those things where that's why I wanted to ask the question that way, because you know, in the mixed book world, what constitutes a successful story that it makes a customer happy, right?

Andrew Laffoon 4:21

So I think there's a lot of details in that, but in short, this the story for me, a story has a couple components. There's a someone who's telling the story, and there's someone who's receiving the story, listening to the story, experiencing the story. And so I think about for us as what is a story. If you kind of zoom out for a second and say, well, what is a photo book, right? A photo book can be a lot of things. And that in fact, part of the reason why we became successful in the industry is because we allowed you to tell, we gave you such a broad suite of storytelling tools that you could tell any story. Previously, it was like, okay, if you have a set of photos that's linear, you can drop that in the slots, and now you have your book. And congratulations, you have a photo album that is another new version of a photo album, right? It's not really not unique. What made photo albums from my childhood special was adding the narrative, right? Adding captions, adding color. It's also really important what you exclude from the story. Right. In other words, like great stories exclude far more than they include.

Gary Pageau 5:22

The whole editing function, right? Editing is taking things out.

Andrew Laffoon 5:25

You got it. Exactly. And so a lot of the work for us is what is a good story is a story that reflects your own experience, a story that has some drama, like it's got the ups and downs. Right. If you don't have the part about how you missed the flight, you probably are missing the essence of what made that story interesting. What are the things the kids are going to remember forever? What are the things that your kids make fun of you for? That's what makes the story interesting. That's what makes it relatable. And so to me, it's like if you level up what these books are trying to be, it's like almost the family mythos. Like, what are the myths of larger than life stories bring your kids one day back together that they're telling their kids and grandkids? Right. And that's like what you're trying to create.

Why Photo Books Go Unfinished

Gary Pageau 6:11

So one of the challenges when photo books really started coming on the scene, you know, about the time Mixed Book was created, you know, in the mid-2000s, was you know, when we were doing PMA research at the time, it was what was the drop rate back then? It wasn't like 75% weren't finished. And the number one reason was people didn't have the right photos, they didn't feel they could tell a good story. Has that changed since then? It's I mean, is the completion rate still, you know, is the completion rate getting better?

Andrew Laffoon 6:41

Yeah, so good question. I would say the completion rate has definitely improved a lot, and the problem has shifted, although it's quite similar in that era, 2004, right, 2005. You had digital cameras was still relatively new, smartphone cameras didn't exist yet.

Gary Pageau 6:57

Right.

Andrew Laffoon 6:57

So the problem has really changed where it was back then. It was like, did I miss capturing that scene that really told the story? Right now, the problem is I have so many photos. I'm just completely overwhelmed. Like, I don't know where to begin. And if you talk to our customers, the ones who make a lot of books, they're meticulously organized. They've got all their folders on their desktop, their everything is organized. They have it curated before they ever come to us. But for 90% of people, me included, I'm just not gonna be that organized. It's just I have too many photos, I've got 150,000 photos. So what do I do?

Gary Pageau 7:33

Right. And that's actually one of the inhibitors, right? You've got it. I've got, you know, the trip to Ireland for my daughter's wedding that's coming up. I'm sure there's gonna be several thousand pictures to choose from between my ones I take and my family takes, and creating that ultimate book is gonna be a challenge, but I've heard perhaps that mixed book has a solution for that.

Story Mode And AI Workflow

Andrew Laffoon 7:56

We do indeed. And I will say we've been pretty much working for at least the last 10 years on making choosing the right photos easier, on helping to choose the photos for you, and choosing isn't just a like what's the best photos in the abstract from this set? What you're actually trying to do, which nobody in the industry does today, is uh have an overarching narrative you're trying to tell about that trend and picking the photos, right? You're gonna be excluding entire scenes for a good story. You're gonna be excluding a lot, you're gonna be excluding way more than you include. Can you choose a set of photos and a set of scenes or a set of chapters that actually weaves together a coherent narrative that's based on what the story you want to tell as a customer?

Gary Pageau 8:45

Right.

Andrew Laffoon 8:45

And so we've just recently launched a our first major foray into what I would call true storytelling for photo books. It's called Story Mode. Just launched actually less than a month ago, and it is right now on our iOS app. And by the time you hear this podcast, it'll probably be available on our website as well. You start with a prompt, it's completely different than any other photo book service. It's akin to it, what you'd find in Chat GPT or Gemini or Claude, where you actually say, I want to create a book about my daughter's wedding in Ireland. And then they'll start to interview you. Who was there with you? What is the story you want to tell about that? Like you might say, This was very expensive. That's the story I want to tell, right? Or I'm just kidding. You could say whatever you want, right? And it'll weave all that into the narrative of the book, and it will actually help you to choose which photos are going to be included, which order are they gonna be, how is it getting laid out? And in fact, you don't really have to do much of anything, you can just give it a couple prompts, and then it lays out the whole thing for you, and then you can edit it to your heart's content.

Gary Pageau 9:52

So when you talk about like the AI piece of that, is that stuff you've nurtured over a decade? Because it seems like some of the stuff I'm seeing, because I get pictures all the time for people who have I've got this editing thing, I've got this editing thing, I've done this. And a lot of it is just it's it's definitely stuff that is not unique. But you have 20 years of secret sauce to look at of how people are not only what pictures they have, but how they're doing it.

Andrew Laffoon 10:20

Yes, we have a massive, massive amount of experience and data to draw from. And I think for us, this there's a whole long conversation on behind the scenes. I will say straightforwardly, without the more recent breakthroughs in generative AI, what we're doing today would not be possible. And so, you know, the thing that honestly blew me away with this tech, because we knew, all right, I think I know how to do it. We've done a lot of research on story. We hired a team out of Hollywood who, like Emmy Award-winning story script writers, screenwriters, people just to train us and understand how to identify a good story. Because guess what? Most of our photo books made by our customers are not compelling stories if you weren't there.

Gary Pageau 11:02

Yeah, you just have no idea. Yeah, because I mean, is there like you said, there's there's two people that are probably interested, right? The person receiving and the person who made it, right? Everyone else, probably not interested.

Andrew Laffoon 11:12

And so for us, it's like how do we help our customers tell a good story and actually make the storytelling process fun? The reminiscing process is already fun.

Gary Pageau 11:19

Yeah.

Andrew Laffoon 11:19

And what blew me away actually is what once we actually set up the system to be able to understand the story behind the story, to interview the customer and get the customer's intent, right? And we trained it on all the right data, it can now write a coherent narrative weaving throughout the whole book in multiple sentences on a spread, and it nails it. It nails things and it does it in a way that I want to call it poetically. It uses a kind of language that I could never write on my own. And I spend a good amount of time writing.

Gary Pageau 11:55

Right.

Andrew Laffoon 11:56

And so, you know, that to me is what generative AI unlocks. It's one thing to be able to say, I have this perfect book in mind, can I do it? Right. And that's I think how the industry's been thinking. Right. And at this point, we're wiping that away. It's really reinventing. Don't imagine that you start with a perfect book. Right. We're helping you create something you could have never made on your own.

Gary Pageau 12:18

Yeah.

Andrew Laffoon 12:19

And that is different.

Gary Pageau 12:20

So talk to me a little bit about the text portion of that, the captioning portion, the maybe the paragraph portion that maybe accompanies a picture. You know, that's been kind of a fail from a lot of other platforms that I've seen, where it's either too generic or just creepy or weird, or even just a terrible voice, right? So, how did you nail that piece?

Andrew Laffoon 12:47

A lot of work. And if you if you used our early AI caption stuff a couple years ago, it was pretty cheesy. My kids still make fun of it. There was like this, I still remember one of the iconic captions that they always quote is falls crunchy embrace. There was some photo of like a bunch of fall photo shoot stuff, and you know, it was a bit ham-fisted, it was a bit awkward at the beginning. And I will say the technology has progressed a lot, sure, and getting it to work right is extremely difficult. So we've had a long-running RD effort. I mean, we've been working on AI since inception for 20 years, but you know, our that internal RD team that's building our own models and commercializing models and working with the big labs, that team has just it's just been an enormous amount of effort to get it right. And I think the trick with AI is the last, I mean, it's always a the age-old adage, right? The last five percent is 95% of the work.

Gary Pageau 13:48

Well, it's not the last mile, right? It is for everything, right? It's always getting that last bit, is always the challenge.

Andrew Laffoon 13:55

That's the hard part. And I think our our culture is a craftsmanship culture, we're really in pursuit of perfection, even though there is no actual perfection in the world. You want it better. And so that's right, I think that's what it takes. Takes a real commitment.

Gary Pageau 14:10

So is there have you gotten any feedback from customers, early users, where they were like, this is almost creepy in the sense, where it was almost too good and it kind of bothered them?

Andrew Laffoon 14:23

Actually, no. Okay. So in and interestingly, because the customer is prompting it and it's in it's using their voice, it makes it feel like you wrote it. Okay. If you think about that, you as the photographer, you're actually telling a story and what you choose to capture. So I actually take photos very differently than a lot of other people because I make so many books. Right. So I'll take pictures of kind of the B-roll.

Gary Pageau 14:48

Yeah, that's what I always tell people. Get the if you're going to go into a restaurant, you get a picture of the sign of the restaurant, take a picture of the menu, you get the B roll piece, right? Right.

Andrew Laffoon 14:57

Like if all you have is selfies, your book is just not going to be good.

Gary Pageau 15:00

Yeah.

Andrew Laffoon 15:01

It will be fine. And I we do get a fair share of selfie books, yeah. But like you're trying to tell a story, right? So even as a photographer, the photos you take are telling a story, it's telling a story of your perspective. And when you have multiple photographers, so much the more, right? You've got you've got this story that's being told. That plus your voice, your kind of overarching narrative, actually enables us to really tell a story, right? A photograph is a thousand words, right? Right. We're only gonna show 20 words, right? And those 20 can be really poignant.

Captions That Sound Like You

Gary Pageau 15:33

So when you talk about combining viewpoints in an in in a book, like when you have multiple contributors, how easy is that in something? Or can you do a version of a story mode book where it's like this is dad's version, this is mom's version, this is the bride's version, this is whatever. I mean, how how are you spinning that?

Andrew Laffoon 15:54

Yes, I expect that most of it will be versions, so especially for your daughter's wedding, right? I'm pretty sure she'll have her own version of the loving book. Thank you very much, dad, but I'm gonna make mine too. Yeah. So, for example, last summer we did a backpacking trip with a bunch of other dads and our sons. And I made my own version of that, and I don't include all the photos that the other guys took, but there was a bunch of photos they took, like all the photos where I'm included with my son, I'm gonna take.

Gary Pageau 16:25

Right. Exactly, yeah, because you want to be in that book, right? Yeah, in a picture other than a selfie.

Andrew Laffoon 16:32

You got it, and their version will be different, right? Like they don't need the stuff we did before the trip and after the trip in their book, but my book will include that, right? And so there's a lot there of pooling photos and choosing photos and all that.

Gary Pageau 16:46

So walk me through that process, though. I mean, how do you create in the mixed book environment that sort of group work thing? Is there an event feature where you everyone can contribute to an event? How does that even work?

Andrew Laffoon 17:02

So, today collaboration means you need to start the project first, right? And so it's really well suited for stuff like, oh, it's our friend's 50th birthday. Everyone go in and make a pace. It's like perfectly suited for that. It's perfectly suited for group trips. Story mode so far doesn't have a way of collecting photos for you yet. That's to come. And you can just you can get the photos beforehand using iCloud or Google Photos, whatever it is, which is what I've been using. Yes. So we have a lot there, is what I would say.

Gary Pageau 17:30

But right now, yeah, because I mean that's the part where I think the whole photo book process needs enhancement, is reducing the friction points.

Andrew Laffoon 17:41

Yeah. 100%. So and I think the biggest friction is choosing the photos. The second biggest friction is how the heck do I turn this into a story? And the third biggest friction is all the

Collaboration And Multiple Versions

Andrew Laffoon 17:54

tweaks when you act if you care about the tweaks, right? The design, what design am I using? Right, all the little choices.

Gary Pageau 18:00

Yeah.

Andrew Laffoon 18:01

So I think from with story mode, our initial thought was this is for those kind of in-between occasions, but not as big. Turns out, no, it works perfectly well for a wedding, and it's amazing what it can do. So, because it can automate so many of the hard choices, and you just give a couple inputs, again, you have to try it to see it. But even the way it Vin goes and recommends to you designs, right? You're still doing a design. Most of these AI algorithm companies, you're getting one photo per page, right? And you're getting a background color, and you're not getting text. It's so simplistic and it just doesn't work.

Gary Pageau 18:37

Yeah. Well, I mean, like for example, if you go into like Amazon photos or Google Photos, you know, they're always trying to suggest things, and like you said, it's it's very, very date driven, you know, there's really no context. Yeah, it's like you were here on this date, want to buy a photo book? Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's people who buy them because they're still doing it, but but it's to me, it's not doesn't you know, and hey, I listen, I would rather have people buy those than buy nothing, right? I mean, it's glad I'm glad that option's out there, but you're kind of trying to reach a different level of user.

Who Mixbook Serves And Why

Gary Pageau 19:14

Have you got a profile on who the typical mixed book customer is? And do you think you're gonna be able to gain some of those people who may not have been hardcore mixed bookers in the past?

Andrew Laffoon 19:50

Yeah, our customer demographic is really it's the chief memory officer in the home, right? Hends to be the mom, yeah, and it starts younger, so because of our our background, the audience does start younger. It starts with people getting married, starts with people just out of college, people going on great trips, a lot of travelers, but it's kind of a youngish millennial right now. And it goes to, I will say, with story mode, the aim has been how do I get those people who don't art? People tend to be the ones who like putting the time in on the design. They like organizing their photos, they like telling the stories, and they're trying to bring people together in some way. Yeah, there's a lot more people who also want to get their story out there, but don't like the process of creating all the details.

Gary Pageau 20:41

Yeah, that that that's always been sort of the tension in the industry, right? Is how much do I help? You know, there's either there's the easy autofill mode people who are really advocates for that. There's like I know several of the vendors who are who have some of the sites where, hey, you know what, mom doesn't have time for this stuff. We need to make autofill and make it easy so she can do this stuff. Then there's the whole other dimension, which is the blurb or the CV Photo Book people. It's like, no, we want the people who are gonna sit there and craft this thing, and they're gonna choose the fonts and all that. And I think there's room for obviously both marketplaces, but there I think there's a bigger room for people who aren't in those worlds, yeah.

Andrew Laffoon 21:21

And again, we've because we've grown up in that world, we got our product market fit with scrapbookers, right? Yeah, that's what makes a book was known for. Because we've grown up in that world, we know how that works, right? And we can actually bring to bear how to make a book that looks it's at to that level of visual perfection and that level of storytelling perfection. And so that's I think where what we're trying to do is empower every person to be able to do that. And you're at the center, philosophically, for us, one of the big things is not getting into a world where we're actually writing your story, we're the author of your story, we define what you took away from the vacation. That would be bad. That's not an appropriate place for us to be.

Gary Pageau 21:58

Or the publisher, not the author.

Andrew Laffoon 22:01

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Gary Pageau 22:03

Yeah.

Andrew Laffoon 22:04

Where it gets blurry is we're starting to write text. So, what does that mean? We're doing layout. What does that mean? We're choosing photos, what to include, what to exclude. And so we're more than the publisher, we're like a superpowered tool for the author, but they're still the author.

Gary Pageau 22:19

So this has been in the marketplace for a while. You've done some PR, you've done Some rollout, obviously done a ton of testing, and I'm sure it's all wildly positive. But you know, how do you get greater awareness of mixed book and even just photo books in general? Because I think as an industry, we've been struggling telling that story because when people talk about imaging these days, they're usually talking TikTok or Instagram reels or stuff like that, which has its place, but it's not the memory

Getting New Generations To Print

Gary Pageau 22:51

market that we all think is more important.

Andrew Laffoon 22:54

Yeah. If I knew that question, the answer to that question, we would be a lot bigger than we are. I would say for me, so much when you look at the next generation, their desire to print is huge.

Gary Pageau 23:04

Yeah. And oh yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Laffoon 23:07

They're not aware in many cases of photo books, or when they've seen it, it's perceived as oh, that's my mom's kind of product. So we're to me, actually, our edge has always been tech innovation, right? It's what can we do to empower aimed at this next generation of creators because they think differently. Yeah, they didn't grow up with scrapbooking, they did not grow up with photo albums, they grew up with books, right? They grew up with books on the shelf, photo books, maybe, right? And I think that's the thing, right? If you make something that makes people say, Wow, yeah, and get you to grow, and of course, there's a lot of marketing that comes with that, right?

Gary Pageau 23:42

I mean, it's it's just one of those challenges that as an industry we've yet to overcome in the sense that you know we're all passionate about printing, right? For obvious reasons, and it's one of those things where it's one of the only consumer products that the user has to do something, has to ingest their own content into it to make it happen, and it's a tangible product, you don't get the value of a print without actually holding it or a book or whatever, though flipping the pages, then you you kind of have that experience, and yeah, I used to love it when Target had those end caps with shutterfly books on them because people were at least seeing that and flipping the books and Costco and all, and there's you know, and I'm not saying you're gonna have to do that, but that that's really been a missing link in the industry is getting that retail experience to the masses. I mean, yes, there's independent photo stores and people like that who have books. I mean, obviously, it's out there, but it it's an industry challenge, I think. Like you said, to engage those new users who love to print, right? They're they're shooting Polaroids, they're making prints and in stacks, and they're shooting film for God's sake. It's definitely the market's there.

Andrew Laffoon 24:58

Yeah, you're right. Both my girls have in stacks and loving it. Yeah, take photos and print them with their friends. Of course, they're growing up in my family, so they're pretty exposed to printing it.

Gary Pageau 25:07

But so, I mean, just in general, I mean, it's it's a big piece of that business, and it just you know, I don't know. I mean, like I said, it's uh it's it's one of those things where you know it's such a great opportunity for everybody to to blue sky, and it just seems like you know, whether it's you know, the mood in the country or technology or whatever, it doesn't seem like there's a lot uh a lot of juice to drive this forward. I'm glad you're seeing a lot of organic growth. I just would love to see, hey, listen, that like the I don't even know if they watch the today show, but like today's show used to have these morning, hey, these latest in photo products kind of things and all that kind of stuff. Right.

Andrew Laffoon 25:46

And I I think the world has changed a lot, so the way you reach consumers is so different, it's much more influencer driven, it's TikTok. Obviously, those are the areas where we are, yeah, right? It's the digitally native marketing channels, and I think that's where that's where we need to be. And so I think the the world of you can do one besides the Super Bowl, yeah, there's not one place to reach everyone.

Gary Pageau 26:09

Yeah, it's just it's just it's just so different piece, and it just I mean, I think you guys are clearly on the leading edge of a lot of that because you've been you're a smart company doing a lot of things, it's just it's gonna take more than you to do that. 100%. Yeah.

Andrew Laffoon 26:23

Are you pitching the new PMA from Dead Pixel Society?

Gary Pageau 26:27

No, not at all. I'm just I'm just like as I look to looking from an industry standpoint with your experience, you know, you've kind of seen a lot of the the good things that can happen and also some of the opportunities that are there. I just think that uh you know, you guys are really emerged, I think, as a leader in that category, because not only you've you you've been in the business for so long, but you're also constantly innovating and becoming being being fresh. 100%.

Andrew Laffoon 26:53

That's the name of the game.

Gary Pageau 26:55

So if people wanted to experience the mixed book story mode themselves, how would they do that?

Andrew Laffoon 27:02

So, right now it's launch it live on our app. So if you go to the app store on your iPhone, not Android yet, you can look up Mixbook, M-I-X-B-O-O-K, download the app, it'll be right there, front and center, and as well on our website, mixbook.com. It'll be live by the time you hear this on our website, on mobile devices, on desktop. I will say the app is the best place to experience it. Once you've generated

How To Try Story Mode

Andrew Laffoon 27:27

your book, because it has access to your photos, it's just way better. And you can still edit it on the desktop, see it on the big screen before you can you start on the book and continue on the desktop.

Gary Pageau 27:36

Can you do that?

Andrew Laffoon 27:37

And that's a very common thing for our customers, right? Because you want to see it on the big screen, you want to show it to your wife and say, Hey, are you uh happy with this? Or I press the button, right? Awesome, awesome.

Gary Pageau 27:47

Well, great, Andrew. It's been wonderful seeing you again. Best wishes on the on the launch, and hopefully a great Q4 is ahead of you.

Andrew Laffoon 27:55

Absolutely, should be a big one. Thanks, Gary.

Erin Manning 28:02

Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel Society Podcast. Read more great stories and sign up for the newsletter at www.the dead pixels society.com